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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6468118" data-attributes="member: 3192"><p>The 90s were two different communities arguing over two different definitions of role playing. That Edwards and so much of the hobby has switched to Vampire's definition solely speaks volumes. </p><p></p><p>You should probably give a clear definition of "the way they are generally understood". If you simply mean conflict resolution to resolve combat (a synonym), then I'm interested. But I don't see how bending bars is a conflict. It's a result of the bars stats, the creature design, strength, and other factors made into a roll of a randomizer representing the odds. Shifting those odds is most games.</p><p></p><p> Which is why D&D rolls result in predetermined outcomes, a system design which can be gamed. Wargamers didn't think D&D was a game either. Mainly because many didn't believe the DM could predetermine all outcomes, which meant it was an incomplete system, an incomplete game. An incomplete game isn't a game. It's like playing Monopoly with half a board. </p><p></p><p>Absurd or not it's the truth. Simplifying it down to collaborative story making is shoving all gaming history in a closet and telling everyone what's known as a Big Lie. </p><p></p><p>Except all those sports use patterned fields of play, pattern expressions, and pattern recognition to play them. IOW, they are actual games.</p><p></p><p>GURPS is an incomplete game. It's an interesting system (code) that fails at the point when the GM has to make something up. It's an inspiring system, but we need less broken games in the hobby, not more. I would agree it's repairable and one of the many D&D imitators which didn't know the game theory underlying D&D's design. What it did best perhaps was try and be a game that emulated stories (unlike story games that where the game itself is attempted to be passed off as a story). But it was still incomplete like so many others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 6468118, member: 3192"] The 90s were two different communities arguing over two different definitions of role playing. That Edwards and so much of the hobby has switched to Vampire's definition solely speaks volumes. You should probably give a clear definition of "the way they are generally understood". If you simply mean conflict resolution to resolve combat (a synonym), then I'm interested. But I don't see how bending bars is a conflict. It's a result of the bars stats, the creature design, strength, and other factors made into a roll of a randomizer representing the odds. Shifting those odds is most games. Which is why D&D rolls result in predetermined outcomes, a system design which can be gamed. Wargamers didn't think D&D was a game either. Mainly because many didn't believe the DM could predetermine all outcomes, which meant it was an incomplete system, an incomplete game. An incomplete game isn't a game. It's like playing Monopoly with half a board. Absurd or not it's the truth. Simplifying it down to collaborative story making is shoving all gaming history in a closet and telling everyone what's known as a Big Lie. Except all those sports use patterned fields of play, pattern expressions, and pattern recognition to play them. IOW, they are actual games. GURPS is an incomplete game. It's an interesting system (code) that fails at the point when the GM has to make something up. It's an inspiring system, but we need less broken games in the hobby, not more. I would agree it's repairable and one of the many D&D imitators which didn't know the game theory underlying D&D's design. What it did best perhaps was try and be a game that emulated stories (unlike story games that where the game itself is attempted to be passed off as a story). But it was still incomplete like so many others. [/QUOTE]
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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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