Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6469082" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Frankly there is only one person in this conversation who seems to have a single "Hallelujah! we found the truth!" one-true-way philosophy. That isn't Ron Edwards, who was pushing back against the "Roleplaying not Roll Playing" advocated in the White Wolf rulebooks. It's your approach.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, as I've pointed out, the first part of this statement is untrue. Discrete resolution mechanics are <em>all over the place</em> in D&D. From the Thief Skills to the Strength "Bend Bars/Lift Gates %" to even a wide range of spells. "I cast Knock. The door opens." A resolution mechanic. Any claim that D&D doesn't have discrete resolution mechanics is simply, trivially false.</p><p></p><p>One single counter-example is enough to disprove your statement.</p><p></p><p>As for the D&D vs GURPS battle? I wasn't there. But if this battle really happened and people really were claiming that GURPS wasn't an RPG because it had unified rather than disjoint resolution mechanics? Guess what? You got squished like bugs <em>even within the D&D community</em>. Your arguments were marginal in the 1980s (and I'd point out that Traveller and Runequest also had resolution mechanics).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Repeating untruths doesn't make them more true. I've given resolution mechanics in D&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This again is completely false. Once D&D was published then players had access to the rules. Once a second person within the gaming group started to run games then at least some of the players had to know the rules. And Monte Haul DMs were a problem because it was expected you took characters from game to game each run under different DMs - so when one handed out too much loot that unbalanced everyone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. Edwards is not talking about chess. Or whist. Or poker. Or football. Or billiards. Or polo. He is talking about <em>tabletop role-playing games</em>. A genre first published in 1974. Your objection about "games as understood for centuries" is like writing articles about the evolution of FPS computer games and not talking about Pong, Pac-Man, and Civilisation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's because D&D was inspired by stepping outside the rules, as Arneson did in Braunstein. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. They do not cover games outside the Tabletop RPG genre. They are in part about what makes tabletop RPGs different from card games. Or team sports. They are useful about Tabletop RPGs but have no relevance to other forms of game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except about Tabletop RPGs, yes. GNS grew out of the Usenet GDS (IMO a more useful system). And aren't really a rejection of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Strictly false. Almost every single boardgame there has ever been has a theme. Or are you now claiming that Monopoly isn't a game? Because it certainly has themes.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You mean it is what your personal local playgroup <em>thought</em>. "Word of mouth" is just another way of saying "Local rumor". It was local urban myth. And myth passed on to you ten years later that is so far as I can tell in flat contradiction to the actual statements of people who were there back in the early 1970s when D&D was actually designed.</p><p></p><p>You were told things that were not in the rulebooks, and that contradict the rulebooks, and that contradict the history of the way D&D came to be. This is a thing that happens - especially as Gygax wasn't good at clarity in intended goals. And it leads to an interesting if idiosyncratic way of playing D&D. Which is fine - the game grows by people doing odd things with it (precisely because it isn't a traditional game).</p><p></p><p>But why you treat the word of mouth of your local gaming group as in a better position to know than Gygax, Arneson, Moldvay, Mentzer, and numerous others is beyond me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Something you would do well to do. Forget what your friends told you in the 80s - and look at what actually happened in the 70s.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What you haven't gone to great lengths to do, however, us check your assumptions and update them when they are shown to be wrong. Whenever a statement of yours is shown to be directly contrary to what happened you have doubled down rather than thinking that it means you don't know it all and would do better than to listen. You've gone to great lengths to convey your position, that I'll grant. It's just a position based on misunderstandings and misconceptions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Am I the only 4e fan darkly amused by this and the years spent saying "That's not what the 4e rules say. Here are page references."?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6469082, member: 87792"] Frankly there is only one person in this conversation who seems to have a single "Hallelujah! we found the truth!" one-true-way philosophy. That isn't Ron Edwards, who was pushing back against the "Roleplaying not Roll Playing" advocated in the White Wolf rulebooks. It's your approach. First, as I've pointed out, the first part of this statement is untrue. Discrete resolution mechanics are [I]all over the place[/I] in D&D. From the Thief Skills to the Strength "Bend Bars/Lift Gates %" to even a wide range of spells. "I cast Knock. The door opens." A resolution mechanic. Any claim that D&D doesn't have discrete resolution mechanics is simply, trivially false. One single counter-example is enough to disprove your statement. As for the D&D vs GURPS battle? I wasn't there. But if this battle really happened and people really were claiming that GURPS wasn't an RPG because it had unified rather than disjoint resolution mechanics? Guess what? You got squished like bugs [I]even within the D&D community[/I]. Your arguments were marginal in the 1980s (and I'd point out that Traveller and Runequest also had resolution mechanics). Repeating untruths doesn't make them more true. I've given resolution mechanics in D&D. This again is completely false. Once D&D was published then players had access to the rules. Once a second person within the gaming group started to run games then at least some of the players had to know the rules. And Monte Haul DMs were a problem because it was expected you took characters from game to game each run under different DMs - so when one handed out too much loot that unbalanced everyone. Indeed. Edwards is not talking about chess. Or whist. Or poker. Or football. Or billiards. Or polo. He is talking about [I]tabletop role-playing games[/I]. A genre first published in 1974. Your objection about "games as understood for centuries" is like writing articles about the evolution of FPS computer games and not talking about Pong, Pac-Man, and Civilisation. That's because D&D was inspired by stepping outside the rules, as Arneson did in Braunstein. Indeed. They do not cover games outside the Tabletop RPG genre. They are in part about what makes tabletop RPGs different from card games. Or team sports. They are useful about Tabletop RPGs but have no relevance to other forms of game. Except about Tabletop RPGs, yes. GNS grew out of the Usenet GDS (IMO a more useful system). And aren't really a rejection of it. Strictly false. Almost every single boardgame there has ever been has a theme. Or are you now claiming that Monopoly isn't a game? Because it certainly has themes. You mean it is what your personal local playgroup [I]thought[/I]. "Word of mouth" is just another way of saying "Local rumor". It was local urban myth. And myth passed on to you ten years later that is so far as I can tell in flat contradiction to the actual statements of people who were there back in the early 1970s when D&D was actually designed. You were told things that were not in the rulebooks, and that contradict the rulebooks, and that contradict the history of the way D&D came to be. This is a thing that happens - especially as Gygax wasn't good at clarity in intended goals. And it leads to an interesting if idiosyncratic way of playing D&D. Which is fine - the game grows by people doing odd things with it (precisely because it isn't a traditional game). But why you treat the word of mouth of your local gaming group as in a better position to know than Gygax, Arneson, Moldvay, Mentzer, and numerous others is beyond me. Something you would do well to do. Forget what your friends told you in the 80s - and look at what actually happened in the 70s. What you haven't gone to great lengths to do, however, us check your assumptions and update them when they are shown to be wrong. Whenever a statement of yours is shown to be directly contrary to what happened you have doubled down rather than thinking that it means you don't know it all and would do better than to listen. You've gone to great lengths to convey your position, that I'll grant. It's just a position based on misunderstandings and misconceptions. Am I the only 4e fan darkly amused by this and the years spent saying "That's not what the 4e rules say. Here are page references."? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
Top