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Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?
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<blockquote data-quote="green slime" data-source="post: 1147013" data-attributes="member: 1325"><p>Actually the party composition is:</p><p></p><p>1 Paladin</p><p>1 Fighter</p><p>1 Barbarian/Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Rogue (Yes, the guy is a munchkin)</p><p>2 Clerics</p><p>1 Rogue/Fighter (archer)</p><p>1 Wizard</p><p></p><p>So they actually need 2 clerics just to keep up with all the healing. The wizard doesn't do much except when absolutely neccessary. I don't think he has ever run out of spells. Being a gnome with 3.0 Toad he has enough hp to survive a sneak attack.</p><p></p><p>Breaking the spellcasting down by school is an interesting question, but is somewhat irrelevant for the question at hand. As the schools themselves are not on par with each other, nor can they ever be, as certain schools provide more utility, others more bang. Comparing then the access granted by each class, and the relative importance of each school for each, will just include more personal bias not less, IMO.</p><p></p><p>The reason clerics on a whole are "more powerful" isn't the fact that they can overshadow a fighter in a single combat (they can't do a repeat performance), nor that they have the largest unhindered spell selection (full access + Domains), it is the fact that they are the most likely to survive. Their pure survivability. Their flexibility if well played. They can melee with the fighter (for a short while), they can fill the role of artillery dude together with the wizard (for a shot while). </p><p></p><p>They are hindered in comparision to the wizard by a lack of feat selection, lack of skills (tend to have lower Int), and slightly weaker spells. They are hindered compared to the fighter by a lack of BAB, lack of stat focus, lack of decent weaponry, and the need to spend their class ability on keeping everyone's head above the -10 mark.</p><p></p><p>Look over their most powerful attack spells at 1st level:</p><p>1st:</p><p>Bane, (Will negates, 50 ft. -1 to hit and saves)</p><p>Command, (Will negates, Close range, opponent loses two rounds if they flee)</p><p>Divine Favour, (personal, +1/3 levels to attack and dam, 1 min)</p><p>Doom, (Will negates, Shaken, 1 min/level)</p><p>Inflict Light Wounds, (melee touch attack, Will half (1d8(+1/level)))</p><p></p><p></p><p>Compare to</p><p>Grease, (Reflex save, forces Balance checks, Close range, 1 round/level)</p><p>True Strike, (personal, +20 to one attack roll)</p><p>Charm Person, (Will negates, Close range, 1 hour/level)</p><p>Sleep, (Will negates, Medium range, 1 minute/level)</p><p>Burning Hands, (Reflex half, 1d4/2 levels)</p><p>Magic Missile, (No save, 1d4+1/((level+1)/2))</p><p>Shocking Grasp (touch attack, NO save, 1d6/level)</p><p>Colour Spray, (15ft Cone, Will negates, Stunned 1 round or worse)</p><p>Cause Fear, (Close range, Will partial, shaken or worse)</p><p>Chill Touch, (melee touch attacks, Fortitude partial, 1d6 damage, 1 Str)</p><p>Ray of Enfeeblement, (ranged touch attack, NO save, 1d6Str damage, +1/two caster levels, 1 min/level)</p><p>Enlarge Person, (+2 Str, -2 Dex, double size, -1 to hit and AC)</p><p></p><p>Magic Weapon is on both lists.</p><p></p><p>In duration, range, variety of saves required,the wizard has more and better choices available. In short, the ease at which the focal point of the battle can be affected to the favour of the party, the wizard wins hands down.</p><p></p><p>Review the 5th level "offensive" Spell list:</p><p>Clerics have:</p><p>Greater Command,</p><p>Disrupting Weapon,</p><p>Flame Strike, </p><p>Mass Inflict Light Wounds,</p><p>Insect Plague, </p><p>Plane Shift, </p><p>Righteous Might,</p><p>Slay Living, </p><p></p><p>And the Wizards have:</p><p>Cloudkill, </p><p>Dominate Person, </p><p>Feeblemind, </p><p>Hold Monster, </p><p>Cone of Cold, </p><p>Interposing Hand</p><p>Shadow Evocation,</p><p>Mind Fog,</p><p>Blight,</p><p>Magic Jar,</p><p>Waves of Fatigue,</p><p>Baleful Polymorph,</p><p>Transmute Rock to Mud</p><p></p><p>And we still see a greater variety of effects, without considering the extra metamagical feats available to the wizard, if they so choose.</p><p></p><p>I could do this for all the spell levels, but the very thought of doing so numbs my mind with the tediousness of the task. </p><p></p><p>Of course the wizard spells are better/more powerful, and can attend to a greater variety of problems/threats/dangers with their spells, because that is basically all that the arcanist can do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="green slime, post: 1147013, member: 1325"] Actually the party composition is: 1 Paladin 1 Fighter 1 Barbarian/Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Rogue (Yes, the guy is a munchkin) 2 Clerics 1 Rogue/Fighter (archer) 1 Wizard So they actually need 2 clerics just to keep up with all the healing. The wizard doesn't do much except when absolutely neccessary. I don't think he has ever run out of spells. Being a gnome with 3.0 Toad he has enough hp to survive a sneak attack. Breaking the spellcasting down by school is an interesting question, but is somewhat irrelevant for the question at hand. As the schools themselves are not on par with each other, nor can they ever be, as certain schools provide more utility, others more bang. Comparing then the access granted by each class, and the relative importance of each school for each, will just include more personal bias not less, IMO. The reason clerics on a whole are "more powerful" isn't the fact that they can overshadow a fighter in a single combat (they can't do a repeat performance), nor that they have the largest unhindered spell selection (full access + Domains), it is the fact that they are the most likely to survive. Their pure survivability. Their flexibility if well played. They can melee with the fighter (for a short while), they can fill the role of artillery dude together with the wizard (for a shot while). They are hindered in comparision to the wizard by a lack of feat selection, lack of skills (tend to have lower Int), and slightly weaker spells. They are hindered compared to the fighter by a lack of BAB, lack of stat focus, lack of decent weaponry, and the need to spend their class ability on keeping everyone's head above the -10 mark. Look over their most powerful attack spells at 1st level: 1st: Bane, (Will negates, 50 ft. -1 to hit and saves) Command, (Will negates, Close range, opponent loses two rounds if they flee) Divine Favour, (personal, +1/3 levels to attack and dam, 1 min) Doom, (Will negates, Shaken, 1 min/level) Inflict Light Wounds, (melee touch attack, Will half (1d8(+1/level))) Compare to Grease, (Reflex save, forces Balance checks, Close range, 1 round/level) True Strike, (personal, +20 to one attack roll) Charm Person, (Will negates, Close range, 1 hour/level) Sleep, (Will negates, Medium range, 1 minute/level) Burning Hands, (Reflex half, 1d4/2 levels) Magic Missile, (No save, 1d4+1/((level+1)/2)) Shocking Grasp (touch attack, NO save, 1d6/level) Colour Spray, (15ft Cone, Will negates, Stunned 1 round or worse) Cause Fear, (Close range, Will partial, shaken or worse) Chill Touch, (melee touch attacks, Fortitude partial, 1d6 damage, 1 Str) Ray of Enfeeblement, (ranged touch attack, NO save, 1d6Str damage, +1/two caster levels, 1 min/level) Enlarge Person, (+2 Str, -2 Dex, double size, -1 to hit and AC) Magic Weapon is on both lists. In duration, range, variety of saves required,the wizard has more and better choices available. In short, the ease at which the focal point of the battle can be affected to the favour of the party, the wizard wins hands down. Review the 5th level "offensive" Spell list: Clerics have: Greater Command, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Insect Plague, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, Slay Living, And the Wizards have: Cloudkill, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Cone of Cold, Interposing Hand Shadow Evocation, Mind Fog, Blight, Magic Jar, Waves of Fatigue, Baleful Polymorph, Transmute Rock to Mud And we still see a greater variety of effects, without considering the extra metamagical feats available to the wizard, if they so choose. I could do this for all the spell levels, but the very thought of doing so numbs my mind with the tediousness of the task. Of course the wizard spells are better/more powerful, and can attend to a greater variety of problems/threats/dangers with their spells, because that is basically all that the arcanist can do. [/QUOTE]
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