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Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?
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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1147175" data-attributes="member: 151"><p>No, no. Well, OK, yes. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>If you mean that they are forced into that role by their available selection of spells, then I would agree with that, in part. If you mean that it's a result of choices on the part of the cleric players, I would disagree.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Well, it's based on WotC's fairly extensive playtesting and market research for 3.0, so I'd assume it to be somewhat substantiated, at worst. I know that 'being forced to play the cleric' is something I've heard bandied about more than once, IME.</p><p> </p><p>Since I'm not familiar with the latter, I couldn't say...but the fact that I, as a non-FR fan, only know the former name and not the latter should be fairly telling in and off itself. I can name powerful wizards from virtually every D&D setting...but I couldn't tell you the names of the most powerful clerics.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I think that analysis is too simple and ignores too many proximate factors, which will skew all your numbers, and defeat what you're trying to do.</p><p> </p><p>Let's take a quick analysis of 1st level spells, for a start.</p><p>Cleric: 24+2 Spells Wizard: 40 spells</p><p> </p><p>Of these spells (ignore domain spells for a moment), we have 6 duplicates: Cause Fear, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, Obscurring Mist and Summon Monster I. The spells Curse Water and Bless Water are diametrically opposed, so technically you could say 23+2 spells. This trend continues at higher levels.</p><p> </p><p>Let's examine the spells the cleric has:</p><p>Bless and Doom are protective enchantments that offer much to the group, but little to the individual. Useful to have around, but little personal glory or thrills to be had from them.</p><p>Hide from Undead and Sanctuary are purely defensive spells that offer limited value beyond hiding.</p><p>Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law, Endure Elements, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Obscurring Mist, Shield of Faith are all excellent buffs...but also purely defensive. </p><p>Here we are, halfway through the list and we haven't encounterd a single non-protective or offensive spell.</p><p>Next up: curatives. Cure Light Wounds and Remove Fear.</p><p>Then, item buffs: Magic Stone, Magic Weapon. Both good, but the first is rarely used, and the second is equally likely to go to the main melee character as the cleric.</p><p>Now, divinations: Detect Undead, Deathwatch, Detect Evil/Good/Chaos/Law are all useful, but fairly limited in scope and applications, and usually only used when a situation is known about in advance.</p><p>Comprehend Languages and Bless/Cure Water are very limited utility spells, but there really all the cleric has.</p><p> </p><p>Now we're 21 spells in, and we're still looking at passive spells. What remains? The 'big four' of offensive spells for our poor cleric:</p><p>Cause Fear, Command, Inflict Wounds and Summon Monster I. The first is merely a 'run away' spell, essentially an agressive Sanctuary. Command is even more limited in scope, but gives more options in controlling the enemy. Inflict Wounds is our only direct damage spell...and it requries a ranged touch attack, meaning you're putting yourself in danger to do it. Lastly, we have summon monster I, a great spell that lasts very little time and requires a full-round action.</p><p> </p><p>Compare this with the varied and interesting list the sor/wiz gets to choose from, and you'll immediately see the difference. There's the classic Magic Missle: it never misses, and can be delivered at range...and gets better over time. Inflict doesn't scale nearly as well. A 5th level MM is 3 missles doing 1d4+1 (avg. 10.5 damage), while Inflict is still doing 1d8+5 (avg. 9.5) and requires an attack roll. At 11th level, MM is doing an average of 17.5 damage, while Inflict is still only doing 9.5....and MM can be set at up to 5 targets at once, if they're close together.</p><p> </p><p>Compare Command with Color Spray, Shield of Faith with Shield or Bless Water with Unseen Servant.</p><p> </p><p>The wizard has more utility, more selection and more direct interaction spells. In actual play, he has more to do than the cleric, who spends time preparing, surviving and gathering limited information. And all of this assumes he doesn't suffer under certain restricitions that some dieties require, such as no healing for clerics of Wee Jas, for example. The cleric is forced into either the role of the selfish and self-interested self-buffer or the party power-up guy, who keeps the party running like a stage manager does a play, but who doesn't actually get to perform.</p><p> </p><p>It's not merely the colleges that the cleric gets to choose from, it's the nature of the spells within those colleges. The cleric's spells are geared towards a certain purpose, and that effects how he actually plays in the game proper.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 1147175, member: 151"] No, no. Well, OK, yes. :) If you mean that they are forced into that role by their available selection of spells, then I would agree with that, in part. If you mean that it's a result of choices on the part of the cleric players, I would disagree. Well, it's based on WotC's fairly extensive playtesting and market research for 3.0, so I'd assume it to be somewhat substantiated, at worst. I know that 'being forced to play the cleric' is something I've heard bandied about more than once, IME. Since I'm not familiar with the latter, I couldn't say...but the fact that I, as a non-FR fan, only know the former name and not the latter should be fairly telling in and off itself. I can name powerful wizards from virtually every D&D setting...but I couldn't tell you the names of the most powerful clerics. I think that analysis is too simple and ignores too many proximate factors, which will skew all your numbers, and defeat what you're trying to do. Let's take a quick analysis of 1st level spells, for a start. Cleric: 24+2 Spells Wizard: 40 spells Of these spells (ignore domain spells for a moment), we have 6 duplicates: Cause Fear, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, Obscurring Mist and Summon Monster I. The spells Curse Water and Bless Water are diametrically opposed, so technically you could say 23+2 spells. This trend continues at higher levels. Let's examine the spells the cleric has: Bless and Doom are protective enchantments that offer much to the group, but little to the individual. Useful to have around, but little personal glory or thrills to be had from them. Hide from Undead and Sanctuary are purely defensive spells that offer limited value beyond hiding. Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law, Endure Elements, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Obscurring Mist, Shield of Faith are all excellent buffs...but also purely defensive. Here we are, halfway through the list and we haven't encounterd a single non-protective or offensive spell. Next up: curatives. Cure Light Wounds and Remove Fear. Then, item buffs: Magic Stone, Magic Weapon. Both good, but the first is rarely used, and the second is equally likely to go to the main melee character as the cleric. Now, divinations: Detect Undead, Deathwatch, Detect Evil/Good/Chaos/Law are all useful, but fairly limited in scope and applications, and usually only used when a situation is known about in advance. Comprehend Languages and Bless/Cure Water are very limited utility spells, but there really all the cleric has. Now we're 21 spells in, and we're still looking at passive spells. What remains? The 'big four' of offensive spells for our poor cleric: Cause Fear, Command, Inflict Wounds and Summon Monster I. The first is merely a 'run away' spell, essentially an agressive Sanctuary. Command is even more limited in scope, but gives more options in controlling the enemy. Inflict Wounds is our only direct damage spell...and it requries a ranged touch attack, meaning you're putting yourself in danger to do it. Lastly, we have summon monster I, a great spell that lasts very little time and requires a full-round action. Compare this with the varied and interesting list the sor/wiz gets to choose from, and you'll immediately see the difference. There's the classic Magic Missle: it never misses, and can be delivered at range...and gets better over time. Inflict doesn't scale nearly as well. A 5th level MM is 3 missles doing 1d4+1 (avg. 10.5 damage), while Inflict is still doing 1d8+5 (avg. 9.5) and requires an attack roll. At 11th level, MM is doing an average of 17.5 damage, while Inflict is still only doing 9.5....and MM can be set at up to 5 targets at once, if they're close together. Compare Command with Color Spray, Shield of Faith with Shield or Bless Water with Unseen Servant. The wizard has more utility, more selection and more direct interaction spells. In actual play, he has more to do than the cleric, who spends time preparing, surviving and gathering limited information. And all of this assumes he doesn't suffer under certain restricitions that some dieties require, such as no healing for clerics of Wee Jas, for example. The cleric is forced into either the role of the selfish and self-interested self-buffer or the party power-up guy, who keeps the party running like a stage manager does a play, but who doesn't actually get to perform. It's not merely the colleges that the cleric gets to choose from, it's the nature of the spells within those colleges. The cleric's spells are geared towards a certain purpose, and that effects how he actually plays in the game proper. [/QUOTE]
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