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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 9479862" data-attributes="member: 92511">So, annnnnyway....Illusionist -as a subclass all its own makes sense. It can also encompass those that would like to play an &quot;enchanter&quot; type of mage, or the more &quot;stage magician&quot; style of &quot;conjurer.&quot;Abjurer/&quot;Abjurist&quot;/&quot;Warder&quot; - as the &quot;protection magic/counterspelling&quot; specialist as a subclass makes sense.Conjurer -as a subclass all its own makes sense for the &quot;offensive/damaging/&quot;dangerous&quot; mage. This can incorporate those who want to be lightning throwing &quot;evoker&quot; type wizards as easily as the elemental-controller or demon-/monster-summoner or even a &quot;low-level/simple version for a &quot;necromancer&quot; -flavoring your conjuration spells to use shadows or dead spirits or whatever. It's really just a matter of spell selection, some fluffing, and maybe a specialized feat here or there that can define the kind of &quot;conjurer&quot; you are. But, generally, even for/among the heroes/&quot;good guys&quot; a conjurer -and their &quot;blowy uppy&quot; magics - would be a cause to be wary.&nbsp; That would leave one more (presuming we are tying to keep to the standardized 5.24 version....so what's the other thematic (enough) way of doing a &quot;wizard&quot; that is not just a &quot;specific kind of magic/spell-user.&quot; The &quot;Fighter-Mage&quot; archetype seems strong enough... I would say even to warrant it's own base class, imho. So the &quot;swordmagey/bladesinger&quot; kind of wizard should probably be saved/created -finally- all its own. Bascially, imho, as long as the &quot;Paladin&quot; exists as its own class, the Fighter/Mage (PF &quot;Magus&quot;) archetype should, too.The &quot;artificer&quot; isn't really something that floats my boat...not enough to warrant a subclass. More of an &quot;inscribe runes&quot; or &quot;craft item&quot; or &quot;make magicky device&quot; feat (or a few feats/tree) kind of thing. I could see them as a &quot;prestige class&quot; (3-5 levels of specialized theme) that could be for wizards making wands or clerics making holy water or sacred weapons, even thieves/rogues making mini-magic trap-tripping devices. So, something a bunch of types could learn to do, that a &quot;wizard's&quot; abilities aren't really the basis for.&nbsp; The &quot;Elementalist&quot; (either specified as a single element creator/controller or a layered/multi-element caster could, potentially, work for the &quot;evoker&quot; type mages as opposed to a &quot;conjurer&quot; type or an &quot;Avatar:TLA&quot; kind of character/archetype...but they don't really go far enough on their own...a &quot;fire-mage&quot; could just be a conjurer who chooses all fire spells and fluffs other spells to include/explain with fiery effect. So, let's call the Elementalist a &quot;maybe.&quot; ---------------Necromancer - for my homebrew/setting/games - I have shunted off to the realm of &quot;prestige class.&quot; Mages of a certain bent (or desire), priests of wicked gods, demented clerics who have lost faith or found themselves in such desperation as to delve into the &quot;abomination&quot; of reviving the dead/toying with/using spirits to do their bidding,...even druids who a have gone mad or fallen from the Balance into such despair as to wade/drown in deep end of &quot;death/decay/entropy&quot; could all become a &quot;Necromancer.&quot; ---------------So, yeah, not sure what a best fourth thematic subclass would be.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 9479862, member: 92511"] So, annnnnyway.... Illusionist -as a subclass all its own makes sense. It can also encompass those that would like to play an "enchanter" type of mage, or the more "stage magician" style of "conjurer." Abjurer/"Abjurist"/"Warder" - as the "protection magic/counterspelling" specialist as a subclass makes sense. Conjurer -as a subclass all its own makes sense for the "offensive/damaging/"dangerous" mage. This can incorporate those who want to be lightning throwing "evoker" type wizards as easily as the elemental-controller or demon-/monster-summoner or even a "low-level/simple version for a "necromancer" -flavoring your conjuration spells to use shadows or dead spirits or whatever. It's really just a matter of spell selection, some fluffing, and maybe a specialized feat here or there that can define the kind of "conjurer" you are. But, generally, even for/among the heroes/"good guys" a conjurer -and their "blowy uppy" magics - would be a cause to be wary. That would leave one more (presuming we are tying to keep to the standardized 5.24 version....so what's the other thematic (enough) way of doing a "wizard" that is not just a "specific kind of magic/spell-user." The "Fighter-Mage" archetype seems strong enough... I would say even to warrant it's own base class, imho. So the "swordmagey/bladesinger" kind of wizard should probably be saved/created -finally- all its own. Bascially, imho, as long as the "Paladin" exists as its own class, the Fighter/Mage (PF "Magus") archetype should, too. The "artificer" isn't really something that floats my boat...not enough to warrant a subclass. More of an "inscribe runes" or "craft item" or "make magicky device" feat (or a few feats/tree) kind of thing. I could see them as a "prestige class" (3-5 levels of specialized theme) that could be for wizards making wands or clerics making holy water or sacred weapons, even thieves/rogues making mini-magic trap-tripping devices. So, something a bunch of types could learn to do, that a "wizard's" abilities aren't really the basis for. The "Elementalist" (either specified as a single element creator/controller or a layered/multi-element caster could, potentially, work for the "evoker" type mages as opposed to a "conjurer" type or an "Avatar:TLA" kind of character/archetype...but they don't really go far enough on their own...a "fire-mage" could just be a conjurer who chooses all fire spells and fluffs other spells to include/explain with fiery effect. So, let's call the Elementalist a "maybe." --------------- Necromancer - for my homebrew/setting/games - I have shunted off to the realm of "prestige class." Mages of a certain bent (or desire), priests of wicked gods, demented clerics who have lost faith or found themselves in such desperation as to delve into the "abomination" of reviving the dead/toying with/using spirits to do their bidding,...even druids who a have gone mad or fallen from the Balance into such despair as to wade/drown in deep end of "death/decay/entropy" could all become a "Necromancer." --------------- So, yeah, not sure what a best fourth thematic subclass would be. [/QUOTE]

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