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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9162384" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Yes, there is.Believe it or not, there are games out there, general games, which embrace a wide variety of play styles and methods, where the optimal choice is to do what the rules were designed to do. Where the smart choice is, in fact, in keeping with the intended choice.These excuses simply let WotC continue to coast on &quot;well that problem is totally insoluble so we just have to accept it.&quot; No, we don't. We do not have to accept such shoddy game design. It can be better. There are many alternatives. It simply is not true that the only ways are &quot;uselessly broken because the rules expect you to do things that are frustrating and self-limiting without reason beyond 'it makes the game better, pinky swear'&quot; and &quot;absolutely no choices whatsoever, if you don't play this one very specific way nothing works.&quot;I find it so funny how when an argument is based on theory, folks are told &quot;white room, white room,&quot; get that theory out of here, we gotta talk about REAL games with REAL players. But when you bring in actual real data? &quot;Those are just rare exceptions. If people would just follow the rules, and almost everyone does, everythig would be perfect.&quot;It's a beautiful &quot;heads I win, tails you lose&quot; argument. Theory is unrealistic and therefore can be dismissed. Actual demonstrations are too specific and can therefore be dismissed. Comments directly from the designers are somehow misinterpreted or misdirected or mistaken or whatever, and can therefore be dismissed.The position is unassailable because no argument is allowed to be discussed or examined. Theory is dismissed for being evidence-free. Practice is dismissed with evidence-free appeals to a silent majority. Actual data collected and stared by the devs themselves is dismissed because...I'm not even sure why.It's absolutely infuriating. And folk wonder why I say it is impossible to criticize 5e.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9162384, member: 6790260"] Yes, there is. Believe it or not, there are games out there, [I]general[/I] games, which embrace a wide variety of play styles and methods, where the [I]optimal[/I] choice is to do what the rules were designed to do. Where the [I]smart[/I] choice is, in fact, in keeping with the [I]intended[/I] choice. These excuses simply let WotC continue to coast on "well that problem is totally insoluble so we just have to accept it." No, we don't. We do not have to accept such shoddy game design. It [I]can[/I] be better. There are [I]many[/I] alternatives. It simply is not true that the only ways are "uselessly broken because the rules expect you to do things that are frustrating and self-limiting without reason beyond 'it makes the game better, pinky swear'" and "absolutely no choices whatsoever, if you don't play this one very specific way nothing works." I find it so funny how when an argument is based on theory, folks are told "white room, white room," get that theory out of here, we gotta talk about REAL games with REAL players. But when you bring in actual real data? "Those are just rare exceptions. If people would just follow the rules, and almost everyone does, everythig would be perfect." It's a beautiful "heads I win, tails you lose" argument. Theory is unrealistic and therefore can be dismissed. Actual demonstrations are too specific and can therefore be dismissed. [I]Comments directly from the designers[/I] are somehow misinterpreted or misdirected or mistaken or whatever, and can therefore be dismissed. The position is unassailable because no argument is allowed to be discussed or examined. Theory is dismissed for being evidence-free. Practice is dismissed with evidence-free appeals to a silent majority. Actual data collected and stared by the devs themselves is dismissed because...I'm not even sure why. It's absolutely infuriating. And folk wonder why I say it is impossible to criticize 5e. [/QUOTE]

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