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Message: <blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 9163897" data-attributes="member: 72555">That ... isn't true.There are a myriad of wizard builds that put out insane damage in a single round.There is the entire magic missile nuke trick - MM does damage simultaneously, so it is one damage roll, then you boost that damage roll and fire off a ... large ... number of magic missiles, each with a damage boost.  Like 159.5 damage without an attack roll in a single round.If we add in a modest resource expenditure the wizard gets better.  Animate objects is 1 action that adds 65 DPR for 10 turns for a 5th level slot, which a 20th level wizard has a pile of, and stacks very well with a bunch of abilities that add to per-hit damage of creatures.  The wizard can also have a bunch of skeleton archers, or (if you want to get silly) Tiny Servants with Wands of Magic Missile.The SS XBE fighter with +3 hand crossbow and 20 dex does (1d6+18)*5.  Toss in pre buffing -- potion of enlarge, hex on target -- and +1 bolts and we hit (1d6+1d4+1d6+19)*5 = 142.5.  Add in action surge for (1d6+1d4+1d6+19)*9 of 256.5, all at 0'-120' range.Of course, all of these are already in the high-optimization territory.That 5th level three attack fighter is a variant human GWF PAM fighter, a very specific build (and one of the higher optimization ones).  They have 16 strength, so deal 1d10+13 (19.5ish)x2 and 1d4+13 (16ish) x1 in their attack routine, not 20 a piece, and have a +1 to hit (!) so very inaccurate; for that to hit reliably, you'll need someone to set up advantage, and probably find a specific magic item (an enchanted polearm, or a strength-boosting item).Meanwhile, the wizard is any wizard who picked a specific 3rd level spell.  And that 3rd level spell deals half damage on a miss and hits a huge chunk of the battlefield if you play on most published maps.Disintegrate isn't a top tier wizard spell.  It is save-or-nothing.  Its main use, I find, is the utility of preventing resurrection.  Wizards have better ways to produce damage output -- animate objects, for example, puts out up to 65 damage per round every round for a lower level spell slot without using an action after the first round.Drop a load of bolts on the ground, animate, and order them to shoot themselves at a set of targets.Burn a 4th level slot each morning (plus some 3rd level when they are killed) and add in 6 boney archers for another 33 damage per round (bonus action to control).The total HP you bring to the table is also insane.  78 undead, 200 from animated objects, on top of your own HP.  Keep yourself in cover (as none of this requires line of effect), and keep your summon-shields between yourself and the enemy (if they charge through, that is a lot of opportunity attacks).  If things go poorly, you have supernatural mobility to get out of dodge (burn an action on dimension door) high enough to allow your summons to finish off most foes before they can close.Foes who engage your summons do drain your resources, but that means your summons are acting like very efficient heals.  Foes who go after you, well, you can afford to burn actions and resources fleeing if they use the same chasing, while your summons (or the rest of the party) keep on plinking away.And I'm not doing high optimization here.  I'm literally picking some decent spells and using them on an arbitrary wizard build - none of the above even requires a good intelligence score on the PC, let alone a specific build.Optimized fighters deplete the HP of big bads faster than unoptimized spellcasters.However, optimization matters a lot here.  A 16 dex dual short sword fighter at level 11 does (1d6+3)*4 = 26 damage if everything hits, with a mere +7 to hit."But" you say "why not 20 dex?  Why not a PAM spear duelist?" - I've seen martial PCs without capped attack stats in actual play and without optimized gear choices.  They picked feats that seemed fun, and never looked up how to optimize.(The last time I was in a game with someone, it was a ranger whose damage output looked like that - they made a ranger beastmaster who mixed up dual wielding strength weapons with a bow, neither dex nor strength maxed.  Meanwhile, other characters where doing 100+ damage in a round.  Work was put into improving the ranger (and beasts) damage output by DM and players; but my point is these characters exist.)And that is the direct competition to the distintegration or fireball wizard - the wizard who picks a direct damage spell with lots of dice in its description and casts it and expects to be efficient at killing things.The range of character power caused by differences in optimization is larger than the difference between classes in 5e.And spellcasters have a higher optimization ceiling, because their building blocks are "chunks of rules text" while fighters building blocks aren't.</blockquote>

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