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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 9163983" data-attributes="member: 72555">I am just comparing optimization to optimization.&nbsp; My point is that more optimization is more damage.+7 as the fighter is using SS/GWM to get those damage numbers.And I am comparing nearly unoptimized (pick 1 or 2 spells) vs quite optimized (most of build and gear choices dedicated to it, and only a few specific builds match this).Real minionmancy blows past these numbers.My goal here isn't showing Wizard&gt;Fighter.&nbsp; It is showing Optimized X&gt;Unoptimized Y.The fact that high end fighter optimization caps out at &quot;do a bunch of damage&quot;, and wizards also have builds that &quot;do a bunch of damage&quot;, is also important.&nbsp; You can choose to ban the wizard high damage builds if you want.&nbsp; But they exist.They usually aren't the wizards best option, because they cost a lot build wise, and they restrict you to &quot;do a bunch of damage&quot;, and as noted the DM can simply veto the mechanism you use to do a bunch of damage (as it will be a specific spell or two usually) as OP.Meanwhile, other wizard builds rely on &quot;do everything&quot;, and do acceptable damage.&nbsp; Banning everthing a wizard can do is less palatable to most DMs, and as the resource costs are cheaper, the risks are as well.The fighter has nothing else to do.Making a foe the fighter can't hurt is trivial for an encounter, but as a fighter can't do anything else, it is rather mean spirited.So every encounter by a non mean spirited DM has a foe rather optimally designed to be beat on by a fighter.&nbsp; Reachable AC, reachable range, no immunities, no retribution, no vetos.Meanwhile, wizards don't need kid gloves.&nbsp; Their primary trick can be nerfed by DM choices, and they can fall back on 7 more tricks in their bag.I played a batman bard to level 20, and avoided using the same trick in any two boss battles.&nbsp; It was more fun that way than repeating.&nbsp; Everyone still remembers the kracken dance party - but adter that, I never irresistable danced a single boss!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 9163983, member: 72555"] I am just comparing optimization to optimization. My point is that more optimization is more damage. +7 as the fighter is using SS/GWM to get those damage numbers. And I am comparing nearly unoptimized (pick 1 or 2 spells) vs quite optimized (most of build and gear choices dedicated to it, and only a few specific builds match this). Real minionmancy blows past these numbers. My goal here isn't showing Wizard>Fighter. It is showing Optimized X>Unoptimized Y. The fact that high end fighter optimization caps out at "do a bunch of damage", and wizards [I]also[/I] have builds that "do a bunch of damage", is also important. You can choose to ban the wizard high damage builds if you want. But they exist. They usually aren't the wizards best option, because they cost a lot build wise, and they restrict you to "do a bunch of damage", and as noted the DM can simply veto the mechanism you use to do a bunch of damage (as it will be a specific spell or two usually) as OP. Meanwhile, other wizard builds rely on "do everything", and do acceptable damage. Banning everthing a wizard can do is less palatable to most DMs, and as the resource costs are cheaper, the risks are as well. The fighter has nothing else to do. Making a foe the fighter can't hurt is trivial for an encounter, but as a fighter can't do anything else, it is rather mean spirited. So every encounter by a non mean spirited DM has a foe rather optimally designed to be beat on by a fighter. Reachable AC, reachable range, no immunities, no retribution, no vetos. Meanwhile, wizards don't need kid gloves. Their primary trick can be nerfed by DM choices, and they can fall back on 7 more tricks in their bag. I played a batman bard to level 20, and avoided using the same trick in any two boss battles. It was more fun that way than repeating. Everyone still remembers the kracken dance party - but adter that, I never irresistable danced a single boss! [/QUOTE]

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