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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9164892" data-attributes="member: 6790260">I mean, I've never really said otherwise. I get that people want simple stuff. I, personally, would love to see a truly simple caster--which neither the Sorcerer nor the Warlock are, as both require more careful optimization than Wizards just to keep up (e.g., note how Sorcerer is one of the ones with sub-par satisfaction.) But that's a different topic; back to Champion.I get that "a simple Fighter that just works" is a desirable thing. It's just very frustrating to me that every time they try to make one, it comes out bad, and not "too good" bad--it comes out ineffectual and lackluster, in ways that were fully predictable in advance.The Champion gets 1[W] bonus damage, on average, out of every 20 attack rolls made, rising to two out of every 20 later. Compare that to Battle Master, which just gets 4d8 extra damage dice per short rest, rising to 6d12 later, often with some other effect tacked on top. Just to keep up, a Champion using a greatsword (2d6) needs to get ~2.57 extra crits per short rest (rising to ~5.57 at high level)--which translates to ~51 attack rolls per short rest early on (~25 combat rounds at level 5, due to Extra Attack), and ~56 later (aka ~14 combat rounds/SR.) Action Surge simply bumps the number of combat rounds up by 2, so you'd still need ~12 at high level, which is still far too many (3-4 combats per short rest.) The requirements to keep Champs in line with even other Fighter subclasses, to say nothing of more powerful classes like Paladins or Wizards, are completely unrealistic.All of this was a simple mathematical calculation away. And, as you say, "cut it or gut it" solutions cannot be the answer here. Whatever changes, it has to keep to the spirit, the concept, while improving the mechanics--by a lot. I'd also argue that simply boosting the crit-threat range is not a good idea either, as the amount needed to make sense (getting it to around 8-10 combat rounds/SR) would make crit-fishing builds overpowered.We have to get better at finding ways to do damage that are genuinely simple, but comparable on a reasonable time frame. 3e had that problem, and 5e has it too, as is the case with a lot of things; the problem is surely smaller than it used to be, but still a problem.</blockquote>

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