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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tylermalan" data-source="post: 2665799" data-attributes="member: 30929">Alright, just to point it out right away, I remembered this because I was checking out <a href="https://www.enworld.org/index.php?threads/152698/" target="_blank">this</a>, which was about which classes were underpowered.  Needless-to-say, I didn't get very far in reading it before I thought to talk about the following subject because I was astounded at how many people thought the monk was underpowered!  It made me remember back to this original disagreement that was had among my first (and only significant) D&D group a couple of years ago, and I wanted to see what you all thought.The argument was this:  Which would win in a duel-type fight, a level 20 Monk or a level 20 Wizard, both with money to spend proportionate to their level (which was something like 700,000 gold according to the DMG, I think)?I said the Wizard would win.  A few others agreed with me, but most of my group, which included one guy in particular that didn't game with us that regularly and whom I wasn't too fond of, said the Monk would win.  My point was simple: the power of a level 20 Wizard spell-wise is just too devastating, and barring horrible rolls on the part of the Wizard and phenomenal rolls for the Monk, the Wizard would be almost unbeatable (not to mention magic items that got the Wizard's save DCs up to like 38, forcing a level 20 Monk to roll an 18+ to save or something).  Granted, the Monk can have magic items too, but I didn't think it would matter really, as I was envisioning a Hasted Wizard with Time Stop and lots of "put these direct damage spells in place to all go off when time stop ends, so that even if he has incredible rolls, he will inevitably take tons of damage while I'm quite the distance away already", and since I would have multiple Time Stops memorized, I could do it multiple times.  The only real point that I can remember that this other guy had was some exploit with magical shurikens, something about being able to throw an infinite number of them per turn, in addition to them coming back to him, which I never really looked into.  He seemed pretty sure about it though.  But come on, its an exploit!  Right?!  This argument may have been had in 3E also, not 3.5, but I don't remember.  He also basically said that a Monk's speed and abilities would allow him to get within melee range of a Wizard, and then it would be "over", due to the Wizard's low AC and HP.The argument, which lasted weeks, ended in a kind of draw, where we both couldn't agree on conditions such as surprise, who would be able to go first, the environment, and primarily, at what distance they would start the duel at. Oh and also, I ALWAYS wanted to actually HAVE the duel, you know, talk with our fists, so I made the Wizard and he made the Monk, but he would never do it, because he REALLY didn't want to be shown that he was wrong.So what do you guys think?  What would happen?  Why do people think Monk's are overpowered, when I always thought they were one of the single best stand-alone classes?And for the record, my Wizard's name was Fizdabulous, and he was totally dabulous.</blockquote>

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