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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9827274" data-attributes="member: 6786252">17 with subclass, not 16. You get two from the subclass when you hit level 3 for having spell level 1 and spell level 2 magics, then a third for getting spell level 3 magics.But if we're going to discuss Bladesinger, the subclass without offering more spells, then you have to take into account the Chaos Sorcerer, who also doesn't get any subclass spells. Both have one subclass as an exception, which makes it kind of a wash imho.You seem very insistent that the wizard is going to be taking all these ritual spells. This is not a given, as many of these are game dependent. There's plenty of games where comprehend language, for instance, will never be taken as a spell even if you can cast it as a ritual. Said wizard might be more interested in having access to Knock, or something else.There is no "most of these known spells are already taken" here. Different players will have different spells they desire.I made the point that wizards knew more spells than the Sorcerer because <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/wizard-vs-sorcerer-in-depth-analysis-2024.716915/post-9826889" target="_blank">Zard said, "They theoretically have more spells."  </a>Suggesting that wizards do not have more spells if the DM does not include opportunities to scribe more spells into their spellbook.It is an objective fact that wizards do know more spells, even without getting said opportunities. Granted, the number is quite small in tier 1 and 2, so its easily dismissed, but I'm kinda nitpicking here.This is a completely different point from if wizards benefit more from being able to scribe scrolls than the sorcerers, a completely different discussion. If you'd like to have that discussion?---------------------------------------------------------I maintain that wizards benefit more from making scrolls, but they also benefit less from making / finding wands or staffs than a sorcerer. See, one the advantages of wizard over sorcerer is more spell slots and more spells known. However, they can only bring a small number of those spells to bear at any given moment, as the number of prepared spells is limited - thus, mechanics that allow them to artificially increase the effective number of prepared spells (rituals, scrolls) have a greater impact on the wizard because they also effectively increase the number of available spell slots as an advantage. Furthermore, scrolls are generally best for exploration, not social. You can technically use Subtle Metamagic on a scroll, but the fact its burning up as a consumable is a giant red flag.Meanwhile, the main advantage of things like a Wand of Detection or a Staff of Frost? Charges. It effectively gives them more spells cast per day, and access to spells that they might not normally have as a sorcerer - scrolls need to be on your class spell list, while wands and staffs do not. In order to create a wand or staff, you just need woodcarving tools and the Arcana skill - no specific spells known or prepared or on the class list, unlike scrolls. This also allows you to save your spell slots for when you're doing something that involves metamagic, improves your utility options, and allows easier access to transforming unused slots into more points for more metamagics for when you want to go nova. Meanwhile, wizards generally have access to spells that you'd get from wands and staffs, so while they benefit from more spells per day, they don't really expand their options as much as a sorcerer would. Wands and staffs can also benefit from metamagics, such as Subtle Spell, that won't be obvious to see and you can be much more casual with holding onto them.Both classes can benefit from scribing scrolls, or from making their own wands. However? The a wizard benefits from scribing scrolls in multiple ways, as opposed to just more spells/day with the sorcerer. And I feel that sorcerers benefit from more from making their own wands than wizards do.Insisting that sorcerers have to benefit just as much as wizards from scroll scribing is such a weird take to me. Both classes approach the mage-thing as mirrors of each other - where sorcerer is better in one way, wizard is better in a different way. Social vs explorer, nova vs sustain, stick vs scroll, more prepared vs more known. Nothing wrong with each having their own strengths.</blockquote>

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