Wizard's Advantage?

[JoeGKushner]

So outside of getting 1 metamagic feat every five levels and familiar augmentation, what's the point in staying a wizard when so many PrCs have numerous abilities in addition to regular spellcasting?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Because your character isn't interested in joining the Arcane Order or dealing with tentacly things from the Cthulu mythos, turning into an elemental, or making a bunch of candles.

Oh, you mean "what are the mechanical disadvantages of prestige classes?"

Not a whole lot. Wizards don't have much to lose (as you observed) and sorcerors have even less.

For most prestige classes, the costs are in the prerequisites (so, if you want to become a mage of the arcane order, you need to take the Cooperative Spell feat and spend a bunch of skill points on Knowledge Arcana. In order to become a spellsword, you basically need a fighter or a paladin level.) Those feats you spend to gain access to the prestige class are feats you can't spend on something else. Remaining a single classed wizard gives you more flexibility.

The other thing wizards give up in many prestige classes is spellcasting ability. Not all prestige classes give 1 caster level for every level in the prestige class. Elemental Savants, for instance, lose a spellcasting level at level 10. Spellswords do at level 1.

Some prestige classes also have unique costs. The FRCS Archmage prestige class, for instance, requires you to permanently give up spell slots in order to gain High Arcana.

 

[Thanee]

Yes, as long as the PrC does fit to the character concept, there is absolutely no reason to keep raising the wizard instead of any PrC that grants +1 level of existing class per level.

As he said, the only cost is in the prerequisite.

This is very different with a cleric or monk, for example, where the PrC needs to offer a lot more than just spellcasting progression (or in case of the monk, monk ability progression (see OA, if you do not know what that is)) to be a viable choice compared to raising the core class levels.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well that bonus feat is nothing to sneeze at. All in all, though, the point of PrCs is thier place in the campaign and the role of the character who takes them, more than it is the relative mechanical potency of the class - thus some PrCs are a bit powerful and others, perhaps, a bit weak... they're not meant to be quite as carefully balanced as the core classes, but to add a bit of color.

 

[Thanee]

Well that bonus feat is nothing to sneeze at.

Not at all!

All in all, though, the point of PrCs is thier place in the campaign and the role of the character who takes them, more than it is the relative mechanical potency of the class - thus some PrCs are a bit powerful and others, perhaps, a bit weak... they're not meant to be quite as carefully balanced as the core classes, but to add a bit of color.

However, this intention has most obviously failed...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Otterscrubber]

Not a whole lot. Wizards don't have much to lose (as you observed) and sorcerors have even less.

The other thing wizards give up in many prestige classes is spellcasting ability. Not all prestige classes give 1 caster level for every level in the prestige class. Elemental Savants, for instance, lose a spellcasting level at level 10. Spellswords do at level 1.

Actually most of the prestige classes will cost you spellcasting levels, I saw very few. As one other poster on this board noted most casters would prefer to have their spellcasting levels pried from their cold dead hands before getting any of the mostly gimpy abilities granted by the PrC listed in Tome and Blood. This is a huge hit. I dont think that any of the abilities of the prestige classes listed compare to being able to scribe 9th level spell scrolls. When i hit 20th level, i like to think that I will have more than 7th level spells at my disposal.

For sorcerors this is even more disastrous as they have even fewer spells to choose from, i know i play one and none of the PrC ever tempted me except to take one level of mindbender perhaps. Telepathy is kinda cool .

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, that and to allow concepts which the standard rules don't support very well. Unfortunately, this is where it starts to break down to a point where prestige classes are now looked for to grant added power to every conceivable character concept. (And if more than one prestige class is available, many people expect to be able to take multiple prestige classes--even a combination of campaign specific organizational ones).

From Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood and DotF, a few examples:

Charcters fitting into the campaign world:
Fist of Hextor
Ravager
Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom
Templar
Knight of the Middle Circle
Knight of the Chalice
Dreadmaster
Mage of the Arcane Order
True Necromancer

Character concepts not well supported by the core rules:
Devoted Defender
Spellsword
Acolyte of the Skin
Elemental Savant
Candlecaster
Lasher
and arguably
Holy Liberator

Clearly, there's precedent for both prestige classes which represent special training by certain specific organizations and prestige classes which grant special themed powers at the cost of flexibility.

Well that bonus feat is nothing to sneeze at. All in all, though, the point of PrCs is thier place in the campaign and the role of the character who takes them, more than it is the relative mechanical potency of the class - thus some PrCs are a bit powerful and others, perhaps, a bit weak... they're not meant to be quite as carefully balanced as the core classes, but to add a bit of color.

 

[Skaros]

Not at all!



However, this intention has most obviously failed...

Bye
Thanee

I guess its not so obvious to me. I know there is a lot of discussion on _rules_ forums about min-maxing and balance and power, but I just sort of assume that most groups (like ours) have players who choose prestige classes to roleplay them and add flavor to their campaigns.

Or are you saying that his statement about some being more powerful than average, and some being less so is untrue?

Or am I wrong to assume that players who choose the (overpowered) incantatrix prestige class, for instance, don't roleplay and extend what it means to be part of a small group of metamagicians....or that wizards who become elemental savants don't roleplay their gradual transformation by (perhaps for fire elemental savant) developing a hotter temper, and larger degree of impulsiveness, etc?

Curiously,

Skaros

 

[Bastoche]

To gain new spell levels. What about a quicken maximized slient still energy drain ?

 

[reapersaurus]

This is very different with a cleric or monk, for example, where the PrC needs to offer a lot more than just spellcasting progression to be a viable choice compared to raising the core class levels.

Don't you mean the Paladin and the monk?
Those are the two that really have problems, I would think.