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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1120266" data-attributes="member: 14225">All of the Level Adjustments are way too high.Every single one of them. For Wizards, for Fighters, for everyone.Let's consider how Level Adjustment is calculated:* We start with the base Hit Dice of the creature, using just its hit points, saves, skill points, and BAB (remember that none of the racial hit dice, even Dragon hit dice, are as good as any character class). That's the base level of the creature for some reason.* Now we take all of their abilities, and assign them an arbitrary level adjustment based upon how good those abilities are without reference to the hit dice. That will be the Level Adjustment.---So the ECL is the hit dice without abilities plus the abilities.Regular classes get hit dice and abilities every level (except the Fighter - but they are underpowered too).So let's consider the "ECL" of a normal fifth level character, say a 5th level human Rogue or human Wizard:A fifth level human wizard has 5 hit dice, so he has a base level of five. Then he casts spells as a 5th level wizard, and has 3 bonus feats and 8 extra skill points. That's a Level Adjustment of +4 right there. So the 5th level human wizard has an ECL of 9.A fifth level human Rogue has 5 hit dice, so she has a base level of five. Then she has 3 sneak attack dice, the traps ability, evasion, a bonus feat, 8 extra skill points, and Uncanny Dodge. That's a Level Adjustment of +3. So the 5th level human Rogue has an ECL of 8.That's the math you are going up against when you play an ECL race. You pay for everything twice, and you end up being about half again as high level as can actually be justified.---And it gets worse. Not only are you staring with about 1/3 of your total levels in the hole - your monster abilities do not improve with level. When a 6th level Human Wizard goes up to 7th level, they still have their Suggestion, but now they also have Charm Monster. When a monster with Suggestion gains a level, they don't get Charm Monster.There are classes that raise your attack bonus, your sneak attacking, your caster levels. But there's nothing you can do to stack up your monstrous spell-like abilities into more better spell-like abilities. If you have suggestion, and you want Charm Monster, you have to start over from the beginning and take 7 levels of wizard.---So yes. ECL creatures suck. They pay too much for what they have now, and there's no classes they can take to allow them to keep up with normal character progression.Your only chance is to find an abusive combo. You still won't be any good, but if your combo is abusive enough you won't care.For example, if you play with the transformation rituals from Savage Species, you can keep transforming yourself into a baby creature and keep buying stackable hit dice for 1000 XP a piece forever.Short of essentially cheating, however, you've got no hope.-Frank</blockquote>

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