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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4976890" data-attributes="member: 4937">I think you are both missing where the saving throws change the most between 1st edition and 3rd edition.In 1st edition, a 1st level character was not expected to make his saving throws.  A 1st level character asked to make a saving throw would probably die.  The odds of success were generally minimal, and often 16's or 17's were required.   But, by the time the character obtained 12th level (or 17th level), the situation had changed radically.  With a combination of magical defences and vastly improved saves, the high level character was expected to make most every saving throw, with characters often needing only 3's or 4's in every category to successfully save.By way of contrast, in 3e, a 1st level character will probably make most or at least many of his saves versus level appropriate challenges.  Generally, with a DC of around 12 or 13 and a bonus on the save of +2 to +6, the character can expect to make his save most of the time.  Moreover, because of changes in the rules, most of the saves he faces at this level won't be the 'save or die' sort that a 1st level 1e character would face against a venomous spider or yellow mold.  But, by the time the character obtains 12th level or 20th level, this situation has changed radically.  Despite magical defences and somewhat impoved saves, the increased DC of 'level appropriate challenges' vastly outstrips the ability of the character to keep up.  It's not at all unusual to see DC's of saves in the high 20's or even low 30's versus high level challenges, which means that the high level character - at least in the case of his 'poor saves' must be utterly optimized in his defenses and even then may face needing to roll a 16 or 17 to save.  And, not only that, but he finds himself now facing true 'save or die' threats.  The result is that just as high level wizards are getting the ability to produce save or die threats, the targets of these threats are losing the ability to defend against them.  Between increasing ability scores and increasing spell level and other bonuses (and rapidly inflating HD in the case of monsters), the ability to increase DC outstrips the ability to increase your saving throw bonuses.  What this results in is something rarely seen in 1e.  In 1e, faced with having to blow through spell resistance and a strong saving throw, wizards rarely relied on 'save or die' as their primary attack.  Instead, they relied on damage dealing evocations that weren't capped by level and still did half damage on a save.  But in 3rd edition, with capped damage dealing evocations, much higher hit point totals in monsters, and much easier 'save or die' attacks, high level 3e very quickly became a matter not merely of 'who loses their saving throw first', but of having in place before hand the right absolute defences (mindblack, freedom of action, death ward, hero's feast etc.)  Since non-mages didn't have access to these absolute defences, they were generally helpless without mage support.This was absolutely degenerate, especially if you allowed access to the full range of degeneracy available in the form of unbalancing PrCs and ill-thought out feats.</blockquote>

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