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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3798934" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't know.  The Ninja is essentially trading Uncanny Dodge for a ton of skill boosts AND cool ki abilities (not the least of which is effectively getting Iron Will for free).  It's almost like getting a couple levels of a magic using class like sorcerer 'free', and since some of those Ki abilities are immediate action 'dodges' the loss of Uncanny Dodge isn't that big of deal.  You say that the ninja is hurt more by 'see invisibility', but I think its better to say that 'see invisibility' just brings the ninja down to the same level as the rogue - who can't be invisible at all.  I think the edge there is to the ninja, who is very much unlike the Rogue - getting something useful at every level.  The only way that the ninja is obviously weaker than the rogue is the rogue gets evasion MUCH earlier, and can qualify for the very awesome powers like 'improved evasion' and 'slippery mind' - which are arguably better than even the Ninja's top end powers.The balance is close and I'd have to do alot of playtesting to compare, and typically its not the cleric BAB progression non-spellcasters that are problimatic (because they are comparitively weak at high levels any), but I personally think the ninja is an unnecessary class that complicates the game more than it helps it.  That sort of exact concept matching is really problimatic because someone might look at that ninja and say, 'That's not what I think of when I think of ninja.'  I'd prefer to leave classes to the really broad archetypes, and leave the concept matching to feats and multiclassing.</blockquote>

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