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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 9595711" data-attributes="member: 6677017">I watched that video and found the details very interesting.What I'm trying to figure out (and I'd love any assistance) is exactly how they are valuing spell effects over 2nd-level.The way spell levels should be valued for monster math is using double the multi-target value--because that's how multi-target damage counts. You assume it hits 2 targets. So the 5e DMG says a multi-target 2nd-level spell should do about 4d6 damage (ie 14), but that should be doubled to 28. If the original spell were multi-target, but the monster power can only target a single individual, you wouldn't use double the value. Otherwise you should. And if the original spell could only target one creature, but the monster can target multiple, you should double the damage. For monster design, a fireball is worth 56 (8d6 x 2) damage, not 28 (8d6), and not 44 (8d10).But instead of using 28 for a 2nd-level spell, which is derivable from the table, they are using 21 from scorching ray as an iconic 2nd-level damage spell. Okay, so they are basically using the real spell damage, rather than the guidelines for creating spells in the DMG. Fair enough, if annoying since we don't have those numbers. (And by the way, using the 2024 DMG a 2nd-level effect would convert to 21 damage rather than 28.) But I can't figure out the math regardless of how it works. For using real spells, fireball and lightning bolt are your iconic 3rd-level damage spells, and they absolutely are worth 56 damage for monster design. So there is what should be our 3rd-level equivalent, but no sense has been made when you look beyond that.The medusa's petrifying gaze is producing the 6th-level flesh to stone effect, and can hit multiple targets. Using the method I described above (which would accord with the value of actual spells in monster design) and the DMG table, this should be worth 154 (11d6 x 2 for a 6th level spell that hits one target, x2 again because it can hit multiple targets) damage. That would give the medusa a CR of about 12, rather the 6 it has. In order to get the CR 6 it has, they need to be rating the virtual damage of the petrifying gaze somewhere between 16 and 33, which is less than the actual damage of 3rd-level fireball and lightning bolt, and even less than the 42 (6d6 x2) damage one would expect from the spell design tables.I really wish Jeremy had given us a little bit more information. Maybe they stopped with rating conditions at 2nd-level where they put "action denial" (petrify is about the only condition that would be worth more than a 2nd level spell anyway) and just treated the medusa's gaze as action denial. If they forgot that it could hit multiple targets in a round, the 21 damage from action denial would fit within the 16-33 range to get the right hp.The 2024 medusa would come out exactly the same in the CR calculations, despite some variance in how the effect is targeted (it's still roughly equivalent to flesh to stone but enhanced to be multi-target).</blockquote>

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