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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack Simth" data-source="post: 2119196" data-attributes="member: 29252">He wouldn't be: the Rouge would have 8 (ranks) + 4 (dex) + 5 (cloak) fairly simply to get 17 constantly; he could probably convince the party wizard to give him Heroism for another +2 and Cat's Grace for yet another +2 on top, if he really needed to be out of sight; for that matter, he might even go with the Stealthy, the Skill Focus(Hide) feat, or both to get an additional permanent +2, +3, or +5 added in; such a rouge could fairly readily get up to 22 permanent, 26 short-term with aid if needed (and would also likely have a decent Move Silently check); such a wizard would have 5 (cloak) + 2 (Heroism) + 5 (LMoP, only works on the first check; recasting for later checks takes a strong voice, and pretty much gives away the location - don't try this with more than one critter around!) = 12, for the cost of 1 magic item and two spells. Of course, that Wizard could also just cast Invisibility (a single level-2 spell) to get a DC 20 spot check to find that they are even around at all, with a DC 40 to actually figure out where, exactly, that invisible creature is (DC 30/50 if holding still), which will commonly beat the two spell + 1 item combo you listed, unless some other caster is running around with See Invisible up.The catch, though, is that it only works once per casting - yeah, you can maybe fix the reflex save to avoid that trap you accidentally stepped on, but unless you've prepared another, you won't be avoiding that first Sneak Attack of the Rouge that's been stalking you.  Moreover, you are required to declare the use BEFORE you make the roll, and it's used win or lose - you can't retroactively do so to save your bacon.  Even further, you don't necessarily know what trap the GM is springing on you when you apply it to your save - he just tells you to save vs. something, and then tells you the results after you roll - are you wasting it on a simple 1d6 mundane dart trap, or a deadly 1d6 death poisoned dart trap?  An arrow trap? A hidden pit trap?  A tackle by something that will actually HELP you if it hits?  Sure, it's handy - but it's far from a game-breaker in most circumstances.</blockquote>

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