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Message: <blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6179347" data-attributes="member: 3192">This is why it is very important the DM role is defined as a referee. You can't "win" behind the screen. It's not even a contest. You are enabling the player to win. To define that a little more, you are enabling the player to achieve their own predetermined goals. (...at least in D&D. Mastermind rules define that game's sole objective.) To explain even further, you as the ref are enabling players in mental resistance training, a kind of mind and imagination strengthening and overall improvement. It isn't about "the right idea" as if somehow the NYT crossword distributing scripture. It's not changing the code so the players can perform mental push ups, gymnastics, or whatever against it.It depends on what one considers rewards too. Beauty in its own right can be valued in games. The question is, "Why would anyone want to be constricted by game rules in order to achieve this?" Isn't real life constraint enough? I'm guessing it's more about removing what some view as the threat of other people when engaged in group creation, rather than enjoying the rules and their interaction in and of themselves. That's why I don't believe most storygames aren't about gameplay so much than, as you bring up, creating something cool, or narratively cool. Of course the same goes for political games being more about politics. Game for artistic creation being more about art. And so on.I don't think D&D or Mastermind are adversarial either. There's bad advice about doing so early in the hobby and a certain prejudice in vogue today against GMs as non-storyteller referees. But I suggest both of those are against the spirit of games and gaming. I take you are trying to make the game fun, to not be constrained by the rules in order to give players what they want as those desires change throughout play. I'm saying playing the rules, even if simply a code hidden behind the screen, is more indicative of game fun and just as worthwhile designing for. I think the games I am talking about are every bit as challenging to design and result in reams more printed material to allow for further play.That's all good. I'm not prescribing the correct way of RPG play, only my ideas on why RPGs were designed largely as they were for about 25 years. And that D&D may not be best understood exclusively within the limits of narrative theory.</blockquote>

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