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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5969971" data-attributes="member: 95493">As I tried to explain - one way has a BASE ogre and one doesn't. If I take the thief-ogre and remove his thief levels and put in cleric then I then have a cleric-ogre at roughly the same level.If I have to rebuild the entire monster because ALL his levels are lurker then it is harder to tell where the lurker part stops and where the ogre begins.One has to do with making a sneaker theme* with a lurker build the other is a sneaker theme with the thief build. One can attribute where abilities come from one can't. One assumes that the role is all entangled with the monster and one doesn't.You can certainly stretch or reskin both versions but the thief-ogre is something explained in class levels that the lurker form ogre isn't. That is until lurker BECOMES a class (perhaps a monster class as I suggested).It also doesn't satisfy the solo/elite problem that I have if you just make the same creature a higher level but the same type and call him a boss JUST because he has &quot;boss immunity&quot;.If you still don't get me then please let me know exactly what you find confusing.It ends up different because if you have a &quot;defender&quot; type class and build a defender type class because he has taunts (or whatever) then it is going to be different from building a fighter-type class that happens to be a defender.I couldn't care less about monster roles as long as they remain descriptive. And so long as those descriptions are correctly demonstrated and taught to new people.*theme NOT used in the 5e theme way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 5969971, member: 95493"] As I tried to explain - one way has a BASE ogre and one doesn't. If I take the thief-ogre and remove his thief levels and put in cleric then I then have a cleric-ogre at roughly the same level. If I have to rebuild the entire monster because ALL his levels are lurker then it is harder to tell where the lurker part stops and where the ogre begins. One has to do with making a sneaker theme* with a lurker build the other is a sneaker theme with the thief build. One can attribute where abilities come from one can't. One assumes that the role is all entangled with the monster and one doesn't. You can certainly stretch or reskin both versions but the thief-ogre is something explained in class levels that the lurker form ogre isn't. That is until lurker BECOMES a class (perhaps a monster class as I suggested). It also doesn't satisfy the solo/elite problem that I have if you just make the same creature a higher level but the same type and call him a boss JUST because he has "boss immunity". If you still don't get me then please let me know exactly what you find confusing. It ends up different because if you have a "defender" type class and build a defender type class because he has taunts (or whatever) then it is going to be different from building a fighter-type class that happens to be a defender. I couldn't care less about monster roles as long as they remain descriptive. And so long as those descriptions are correctly demonstrated and taught to new people. *theme NOT used in the [I]5e theme[/I] way. [/QUOTE]

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