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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5970045" data-attributes="member: 95493">Missed a few in between, I'll catch up.EDIT: Take a look at @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/jamesoncourage.html" target="_blank">JamesonCourage</a> and @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/aberzanzorax.html" target="_blank">Aberzanzorax</a> 's last couple of posts they are great too.I think you answered your own question. Without wizard levels we KNOW EXACTLY where the elf starts. We have an elf race. We have elf racial stats. We can pick out the stuff that is elf and the stuff that is wizard.Monster classes DOES solve this problem because then we can figure out where aspects come from. Their lack is what makes role = classes unacceptable to me. Add in the fact that wizards have roles too, so PCs have roles and classes and monsters have only roles, which (possibly) are inaccurate, fallible and non-explanative.I would have the same objection to classless PCs, because defining the &quot;fighter&quot; as a brute or defender ONLY would be silly. He is a fighter, he has those other things too as variations but he isn't just those things.So calling a brute ogre JUST a brute ogre without saying how he got to be a brute doesn't tell us where the ogre begins. Brute isn't a class it is a role, as I said 2 (I think) posts back.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 5970045, member: 95493"] Missed a few in between, I'll catch up. EDIT: Take a look at @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/jamesoncourage.html"]JamesonCourage[/URL] and @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/aberzanzorax.html"]Aberzanzorax[/URL] 's last couple of posts they are great too. I think you answered your own question. Without wizard levels we KNOW EXACTLY where the elf starts. We have an elf race. We have elf racial stats. We can pick out the stuff that is elf and the stuff that is wizard. Monster classes DOES solve this problem because then we can figure out where aspects come from. Their lack is what makes role = classes unacceptable to me. Add in the fact that wizards have roles too, so PCs have roles and classes and monsters have only roles, which (possibly) are inaccurate, fallible and non-explanative. I would have the same objection to classless PCs, because defining the "fighter" as a brute or defender ONLY would be silly. He is a fighter, he has those other things too as variations but he isn't just those things. So calling a brute ogre JUST a brute ogre without saying how he got to be a brute doesn't tell us where the ogre begins. Brute isn't a class it is a role, as I said 2 (I think) posts back. [/QUOTE]

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