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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5970084" data-attributes="member: 95493">Base Human in 3.5 (as per SRD)Humans <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Human base land speed is 30 feet.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1 extra feat at 1st level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm" target="_blank">Speak Language</a> skill.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human  takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does  not count.</li> </ul>Base Ogre as per 3.5 (srd)Ogres As Characters      Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll" target="_blank">attack rolls</a>, -4 penalty on <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm" target="_blank">Hide</a> checks, +4 bonus on <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grappleChecks" target="_blank">grapple checks</a>, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision" target="_blank">Darkvision</a> out to 60 feet.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows" target="_blank">saving throw</a> bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm" target="_blank">Climb</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm" target="_blank">Listen</a>, and <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm" target="_blank">Spot</a>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficiency" target="_blank">proficient</a> with <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons" target="_blank">simple weapons</a>, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons" target="_blank">martial weapons</a>, light and medium armor, and shields.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+5 <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#naturalArmorBonus" target="_blank">natural armor bonus</a>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Favored Class: <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm" target="_blank">Barbarian</a>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Level adjustment +2.</li> </ul>I can't post the 4e stuff. But look at pages...162 for human and 198 for ogres of the 1st monster manual 4e.There are SEVERAL ogres, one described as 'Large Natural Humanoid, Level 16 Minion'. How does that relate to the 3e version of 4th level Ogre Barbarian.That is what I'm talking about. One has base stats. One doesn't. With 3e I can create a mage-barbarian-assassin-monk-ogre if I so choose because I have BASE OGRE stats. I can do the same with a human if I want because I have BASE HUMAN stats. I have these because they are races and they have stats listed. I can't on the other hand take the 'Level 16 Minion' or even the 'Level 8 Brute' (on the next page) and extrapolate a BASE ogre. There is no BASE ogre in 4e.Regardless of your question, which I hope I answered, I wasn't talking about 3e vs 4e. I was talking about a style (closer to 3e I'll admit) that has a BASE creature which can be customized or a system that uses a base creature at the core so that all the creatures derived are similar to that base. I wasn't talking about 3e or 4e monster design at all, just systems which are near it or based on it. I am talking about monster design going forward not which monster design system was best and which was worst in the past. 3e has holes. I can point them out and so can you. I find 4e lacking but you seem to think it is perfect*. I can deal with that but that isn't relevant here. I'm talking about what I would like to see as far as monster design going forward. It doesn't make sense to me to NOT have a base creature and instead have only a lurker, brute, minion, solo, boss, artillery and banana flavoured options for every creature just because - without any reasoning or explanation. I can come up with a reason but I don't feel I should have to for any given situation when I buy a game from a developer.The other point I try to make is that those titles are often inaccurate. Especially when different tactics or maneuvers are used. When you don't use the brute as the guy who stands there to take the damage (and forcus) and to smash the crap out of you - and instead use him as a big meanie hiding in the shadows what does that make him? Is a minion still a minion if used by himself - I know the answer is yes but WHY is it?I'm also going to ignore the "brute academy" reasoning idea entirely. That isn't what either one of us are really talking about and I think it will derail this conversation more than anything else.*If not perfect you at least believe that what I think are big holes or bugs aren't. You seem to think they are features or minor problems that can be easily patched with X or Y houserule. Evident from the "full rest means staying in Rivendell"** comments.**You didn't say Rivendell on this thread, now that I think about it, but that is the general idea if I'm not mistaken.</blockquote>

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