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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5970645" data-attributes="member: 95493">This post was going to be ungodly long unless I cut things out. Apologies in advance if I cut something significant.I'm going to cover this all at once, for both of you. Monster classes/levels (including giant levels/HD) ARE a construct that exists in 3e that I haven't seen in the 4e monster manual in any form.Fifth - you seem to be saying that roles are the new monster classes are the roles but I have shown how roles are roles and classes are classes so unless you have monster classes to compare to player classes you already lose me on that argument.As far as "not a base human"... well it is. At that point I can give it any number of class levels in any number of classes and know exactly what I'll get. I know exactly what is the human part and what is the class.I can't do the same with the ogres given in the 4e MM. I have so many variations. Unless I want to do a dissection of all the examples, and then recalculate based on the different rules for minions vs regular vs boss monsters I'm not going to have a base creature.pemerton - 4th level giant is different from 4th level brute because brute isn't a class. It is a role, like defender is for fighter.Considering we are talking about an entire system of mechanical constructs that have no particular meaning beyond their function I don't see how the BASE OGRE is any different.Also, warhulk =/= base ogre. It might be to you but there are so many examples that it doesn't equal that to me or everyone. The fact that the warhulk isn't the foremost example already discounts it. It might be typical but if there was only the warhulk could we rename it ogre and have everyone satisfied?I don't see me saying anything about making monsters the same in that quote. I said that I wanted a creature with a similar base. That is the only thing I could find that I figured you could be talking about.For the record:Similar: Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.Same: Identical; not different; unchanged.Beyond that I'm stumped for what you are referring to.Um... without reasoning or explanation would be that there is an artillery ogre, but not a base ogre. Without R or E would be a brute without a base ogre. It would be a lurker without a base form. The sentence needed to be taken as a whole.I don't understand how there can be an artillery form without there being a base form as well. If artillery is special tactics dealing with firing from range.. and there is another one that does the opposite by being in melee and getting smashed on, and another that does crowd control and all the while there is not one creature I can point at and say "you encounter an ogre" then something went wrong. Granted this is all in my opnion but you seem interested so I'm giving it.Also for the record, there is no blackblade class that I can find either.I wanted to ignore the brute academy. My problem and point wasn't that it gave or didn't give a reasoning for these tactics. I understand the reasons for there to be certain ogres who fire from range and others that can do magic and others that can do melee. I do. But I don't understand why they are so dissimilar to one another. Why can't the ranged ogre and the melee ogre be the same or very similar? Why does it have to be a completely different build with a stronger reflex. That is question 1.Question 2 was then WHERE do they pick up these abilities. Saying brute academy doesn't really satisfy me as I see brute as something akin to barbarian - so I don't expect training in that either. In either case, a backstory reason of a brute academy works only for backstory. The "they're shorter so they trained at range instead of melee" also works only for backstory. It doesn't really explain why ogre A who is supposed to be a full-fledged ogre with no class levels or practical training has a strong fort and poor HP and no armor (so low AC) but ogre B is also a full-fledged ogre with no class levels or practical training and has a strong reflex and lower HP and a higher AC (but is wearing the same armor).It is entirely probable. My bad. I thought you had the same fix for HP healing; needing a safe place and longer duration. Either way, you are almost certainly right about that mistake.At least you seem to finally get my point and not lost in what I'm saying. Disagreement is what we have now instead of confusion, unless I am still mistaken.</blockquote>

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