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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 9051414" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>When I've done campaigns that involved wars, the PCs are special strike forces and rarely involved in front line direct combat. A fireball is great, but you only have a handful even at the highest level. Yes, it's going to do some damage but not really any more than a well organized arrow volley. Unlike that arrow volley, the enemy can pinpoint where the spell came from since the caster has to be in a spot that is at least somewhat exposed in order to target the spell. Getting involved in mass combat seems like a great way for a wizard to commit suicide by enemy army. Might be useful now and then but in the grand scheme of things? Doesn't matter as much as some people think IMHO. </p><p></p><p>For example meteor swarm is great, but even after level 17 when you get it, it's still once a day. When a large army is 30,000-40,000, a couple of fireballs isn't going to matter. Even smaller battles with just a few hundred men (fairly typical because of supply issues) it really can't make <em>that </em>much of a difference.</p><p></p><p>But the PCs can still contribute by disrupting enemy supply lines, confronting the enemy's special units, infiltrating enemy command, etc.. The enemy recruiting a cohort of giants to supplement their forces? Guess who gets to go behind enemy lines and take the giants out. The PCs are Seal Team 6 going in to do special raids or take out specific enemies, not part of battalion #223. Enemy combatants typically use NPCs from the MM, with </p><p></p><p>The PC success or failure (and degree) can have an impact on the overall war effort, but other than that I just kind of hand-wave all of that stuff. Set up missions with minimum and stretch goals, the more stretch goals they achieve the better it is for their team. There should also be times when it is obvious they need to run. </p><p></p><p>On a related note, I don't care if you're a high level fighter. Throw enough soldiers and the soldiers will win eventually. Have some of the soldiers grapple, do a dog pile, aid others, separate the PCs and surround them with two ranks of soldiers attacking with the second rank using halberds. Do whatever it takes. After several minutes of nonstop fighting exhaustion will start to settle in. If it ever comes up (it hasn't in my game for this) I'd use the mob rules found in the DMG, basically figure that even if it takes a 20 to hit an enemy, if you have 20 attackers one is going to hit every round. Unless you're using cleave rules, the fighter can only take out a handful of enemies per round. They'll be standing on top of a pile of bodies by the end, but they will eventually fall.</p><p></p><p>Last, but not least, there have been several attempts to come up with mass combat rules that directly involve PCs over the years. It's never really materialized, even Dragonlance has a separate board game for mass combat, because it just doesn't really work with the design of D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 9051414, member: 6801845"] When I've done campaigns that involved wars, the PCs are special strike forces and rarely involved in front line direct combat. A fireball is great, but you only have a handful even at the highest level. Yes, it's going to do some damage but not really any more than a well organized arrow volley. Unlike that arrow volley, the enemy can pinpoint where the spell came from since the caster has to be in a spot that is at least somewhat exposed in order to target the spell. Getting involved in mass combat seems like a great way for a wizard to commit suicide by enemy army. Might be useful now and then but in the grand scheme of things? Doesn't matter as much as some people think IMHO. For example meteor swarm is great, but even after level 17 when you get it, it's still once a day. When a large army is 30,000-40,000, a couple of fireballs isn't going to matter. Even smaller battles with just a few hundred men (fairly typical because of supply issues) it really can't make [I]that [/I]much of a difference. But the PCs can still contribute by disrupting enemy supply lines, confronting the enemy's special units, infiltrating enemy command, etc.. The enemy recruiting a cohort of giants to supplement their forces? Guess who gets to go behind enemy lines and take the giants out. The PCs are Seal Team 6 going in to do special raids or take out specific enemies, not part of battalion #223. Enemy combatants typically use NPCs from the MM, with The PC success or failure (and degree) can have an impact on the overall war effort, but other than that I just kind of hand-wave all of that stuff. Set up missions with minimum and stretch goals, the more stretch goals they achieve the better it is for their team. There should also be times when it is obvious they need to run. On a related note, I don't care if you're a high level fighter. Throw enough soldiers and the soldiers will win eventually. Have some of the soldiers grapple, do a dog pile, aid others, separate the PCs and surround them with two ranks of soldiers attacking with the second rank using halberds. Do whatever it takes. After several minutes of nonstop fighting exhaustion will start to settle in. If it ever comes up (it hasn't in my game for this) I'd use the mob rules found in the DMG, basically figure that even if it takes a 20 to hit an enemy, if you have 20 attackers one is going to hit every round. Unless you're using cleave rules, the fighter can only take out a handful of enemies per round. They'll be standing on top of a pile of bodies by the end, but they will eventually fall. Last, but not least, there have been several attempts to come up with mass combat rules that directly involve PCs over the years. It's never really materialized, even Dragonlance has a separate board game for mass combat, because it just doesn't really work with the design of D&D. [/QUOTE]
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