Pathfinder 1E World of Golarion going Lovecraft too much?

[ShinHakkaider]

The issue I always see is the difference between the Mythos Elements and the Mythos Mindset. "We killed three shoggoths and a city of Deep Ones" isn't Lovecraftian. They're just inspiration for more powerful monsters, but they're still out there for the PC's to defeat, not to represent mind-shattering horrific beings which will ultimately crush humanity.

Classic Mythos is a doomsday scenario - at best you can stave off the inevitable. And much classic Lovecraft is not even about staving off the inevitable, but peeling back the onion to understand the universe - a universe where understanding leads inevitably to insanity. That kind of defeatist universe is not one many gamers want to game in, so the mythos gets twisted into something that can be battled successfully. That's still fun for a lot of gamers - but it's not really Lovecraft. His stories don't end with "and having sent Cthulhu back to the deep for another hundred years, the Captain retired, married, had many children and grandchildren and lived a life of peace and happiness".

Yeah his is how I see it. I know almost nothing about the Mythos. The little bit I do know I've gleaned from whatever influences have been put into Pathfinder and other material.

I also have a particular mindset about Horror.
If youre able to fight back against "horror" and possibly win? Then it's not horror, it's action suspense with some horrific elements in place.

If youre literally trying to survive knowing that eventually the horror is going to win or that you MIGHT be able to escape with your life and MAYBE your sanity intact? THAT'S horror.

 

[Epametheus]

Compared to what the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse seek, or the ever-encroaching threat of the Abyss, the Elder Gods of the Dark Tapestry are simply one more possible Bad Ending for the multiverse. The Elder Gods can be included without being the be-all and end-all of threats because there are other forces in the multiverse that are just as horrible.

Hell, a final victory by the Elder Gods would actually be preferable to a victory by the Four Horsemen. I consider the Four Horseman and Abaddon to be just that bad.

Different evils, different goals. It's fine.

 

[Steel_Wind]

For me, this definitely seems to be true. I don't mind the occasional bit of horror, but the inclusion of Lovecraft monsters takes it a bit too far for me. I love my CoC games every now and then, but when I want to play in Golarion, I want it to be new and different enough, not anything that's imported from elsewhere.

Players and me have decided to rename the monsters and alter them well enough to they aren't Lovevcraft anymore, but I begin to worry about my (momentarily) fav RPG world.

Does anyone else feel that way or are we the odd players?

There have been FIFTY 32 page stand alone adventures released for Golarion under 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG.

A grand total of TWO of them are Lovecraftian in nature: Carrion Hill and From Shore to Sea. Arguably, Crucible of Chaos might also be termed "Lovecraftian" - I don't agree but I'll play it on the safe side:

Modules: Total Lovecraftian modules: 6%.

There are 55 issues of Pathfinder Adventure Path which have been released so far under 3.5 and PFRPG, including the 1st volume of Skull and Shackles (which some of you might not have yet). There is ONE which is Lovecraftian in nature, Pathfinder #46, Wake of the Watcher.

Adventure Path: Total Lovecraftian Adventure Path installments: 1.82%

When it comes to Pathfinder Society Scenarios, I would say that none of them are Lovecraftian in nature. While I have not read every single last one of them, I have read about 80 or so. Not one Lovecraftian PFS Scenario yet, to my judgment.

PFS Scenarios: Total Lovecraftian Scenarios: 0.0%

Do I think you are over-reacting a little? On the evidence? Manifestly, the answer is clearly YES.

I would note that there is a DIFFERENCE between including a Lovecraftian monster in a bestiary and framing an adventure around a number of them. The Bestiary is system neutral and has nothing to do with "Golarion". If this is a world issue for you, you need to put aside the Bestiaries and look at the adventures.

It isn't enough that there is some tentacled horror in one of the modules or APs, either. Jade Regent #1 has a Decapus in it (as do two or three other PF APs). Does that make it a "Lovecraftian" AP? With Pirates and Ninjas and Vikings and demonic Oni and Tengus being the predominant flavor of the AP? I don't think so.

Yes, they have added monsters in the Bestiaries which are Lovecraftian - gamers like them, they are public domain and Lisa Stevens likes them. Tome of Horrors Complete by Frog God Games added even more of them. But that does not mean that Golarion itself has gone Lovecraftian -- far from it.

 

[Systole]

So if I dropped a turd in your swimming pool, you would be willing to take a dip given that the fecal matter comprises only a small percentage of the total volume?

 

[Steel_Wind]

So if I dropped a turd in your swimming pool, you would be willing to take a dip given that the fecal matter comprises only a small percentage of the total volume?

Clearly, your analogy is penetrating, informative and a keenly insightful review of Golarion and all that it comprises.

But if Lovecraft = turd, Golarion does not equal one swimming pool, but hundreds of swimming pool_s.

To continue with your high-brow analysis and deconstruction, If I dropped a turd into four clearly marked swimming pools, does that mean you won't swim in the other 221 marked to be turd free?

 

[Systole]

To continue with your high-brow analysis and deconstruction, If I dropped a turd into four clearly marked swimming pools, does that mean you won't swim in the other 221 marked to be turd free?

So your percentage point breakdown of Lovecraft Elder Gods as a fraction of the whole Golarion setting was absolutely worthwhile and not pointless at all then, given that all those APs and modules are not part of a greater whole. Gotcha.

 

[ahayford]

Troll

 

[Piratecat]

Quit with the turd comments, insults and rudeness. You know what? It's okay when someone doesn't agree with you. It's not a reason to lose your temper, insult anyone or be a jerk. Just discuss the topic and keep an open mind instead.

Also, if there's a problem don't yell "troll!" That helps nothing. Instead report the post using the triangular "!" button at the bottom left of every post.

 

[SteelDraco]

I'll admit that I'm not a big fan of the Mythos as part of a reality outside of and larger than the "normal" D&D multiverse. I'd rather it be a part of it. Cthulhu and such can be demon lords and such, rather than being by necessity greater and more powerful than everything else. Maybe they represent a previous dynasty of demon lords or something, the way that the titans were overthrown by the Greek gods. Hounds of Tindalos don't have to be from "outside space and time" - they can be hunting creatures from the Astral Plane, which if I remember my Planescape right, was essentially "outside space and time". You don't have to invent new and grander places for these things to be from; I'd prefer to see them incorporated into as coherent a whole as possible rather than feel shoehorned in.

 

[Systole]

Troll

If I had been trolling, I would have added a third sentence to my post, most likely along the lines of: "I eagerly await your 7000 word rebuttal six months from now, after you've had time to think about it a little."

But seeing as I didn't do that, I would humbly suggest you file what I wrote under "Pointed Response to Previous Post" rather than "Troll." That's just my opinion, however. It's okay if you disagree with me.

 

[Systole]

I'll admit that I'm not a big fan of the Mythos as part of a reality outside of and larger than the "normal" D&D multiverse. I'd rather it be a part of it. Cthulhu and such can be demon lords and such, rather than being by necessity greater and more powerful than everything else. Maybe they represent a previous dynasty of demon lords or something, the way that the titans were overthrown by the Greek gods. Hounds of Tindalos don't have to be from "outside space and time" - they can be hunting creatures from the Astral Plane, which if I remember my Planescape right, was essentially "outside space and time". You don't have to invent new and grander places for these things to be from; I'd prefer to see them incorporated into as coherent a whole as possible rather than feel shoehorned in.

In this case, I could kind of deal with Cthulhu. If it was incorporated in, rather than automatically being a million times worse than anything you could possibly imagine ... then, okay. Maybe.

 

[Piratecat]

It's funny. I love Call of Cthulhu, and I love Pathfinder, but I really don't like the two mixing. I have no shoggoths in my D&D, any more than I have machine guns or laser pistols (I know, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but that's not my favorite adventure either.) Lovecraftian monsters renamed and re-imagined? Hell yes. Just not imported completely.

 

[N'raac]

It's funny. I love Call of Cthulhu, and I love Pathfinder, but I really don't like the two mixing. I have no shoggoths in my D&D, any more than I have machine guns or laser pistols (I know, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but that's not my favorite adventure either.) Lovecraftian monsters renamed and re-imagined? Hell yes. Just not imported completely.

In large part, they have just been imported, though not renamed. In Lovecraft/CoC, try fighting a Shoggoth. In D&D, it's another big ugly monster to be defeated.

I do agree with merging Mythos elements to the existing structure, though. Hounds of Tindalos could fit quite nicely in the astral plane, as suggested in an earlier post. An uber-powerful being sleeping/imprisoned beneath the waves hardly seems a stretch for high fantasy campaigns.

What does not fit is the feel of Lovecraft, where there is ultimately no hope, and just peeling back the layers to understand the true nature of reality means insanity. But that's campaign tone - Call of Cthulhu expects the PC's to band together and battle against these horrors, which is not itself consistent with Lovecraft's writings.

That's OK - games are a different medium. Stoker and Shelley didn't have their monsters going toe to toe with stalwart warriors and powerful wizards either.

 

[ahayford]

I apologize for the brevity of my post. I had intended to provide more detail but got interrupted. It simply seemed to me you were choosing to pick apart his analogy and purposefully misunderstanding his point....That being, when you take a look at all the material that has been published for Golarian and PF, Mythos related material is really a small fraction of the total body of work.

 

[Systole]

Well, to be fair then, you were not altogether wrong. I was choosing to pick apart his analogy, but only because I didn't think it was a good analogy.

Golarion is a shared world, and while you can choose not to play a particular adventure, that adventure is a part of Golarion whether you like it or not. Now, this isn't so bad if you don't like, for example, Linnorm Kings. You can avoid Linnorm Kings. You can level to 20th eight or ten times over and never see a Linnorm King.

But with Lovecraftian cosmic horrors, you don't have the choice to avoid them. Cosmic horror is everywhere. It permeates everything. Doesn't matter if you're 1st level slaying goblins or 20th level slaying ancient red dragons. Each of your character's actions and victories is ultimately hopeless, because eldritch abominations exist and someday they're going to wipe out the universe. It's a built-in downer ending (Warning: TVTropes link).

There's nothing inherently wrong with downer endings, but adding Cthulhu to PF is like asking the guy who directed Melancholia if he could remake Conan the Barbarian. Hey, the hero slew the evil sorcerer and rescued the fair maiden ... and then a rogue gas giant obliterates the entire world like an SUV running over a hamster.

 

[billd91]

Golarion is a shared world, and while you can choose not to play a particular adventure, that adventure is a part of Golarion whether you like it or not. Now, this isn't so bad if you don't like, for example, Linnorm Kings. You can avoid Linnorm Kings. You can level to 20th eight or ten times over and never see a Linnorm King.

But with Lovecraftian cosmic horrors, you don't have the choice to avoid them. Cosmic horror is everywhere. It permeates everything. Doesn't matter if you're 1st level slaying goblins or 20th level slaying ancient red dragons. Each of your character's actions and victories is ultimately hopeless, because eldritch abominations exist and someday they're going to wipe out the universe. It's a built-in downer ending (Warning: TVTropes link).

I find this line of reasoning utterly bizarre. If the DM isn't interested in Lovecraftian horrors, use of them can be avoided in a campaign just as easily as avoiding a Ulfen raider from the Land of the Linnorm Kings.

 

[Systole]

I find this line of reasoning utterly bizarre. If the DM isn't interested in Lovecraftian horrors, use of them can be avoided in a campaign just as easily as avoiding a Ulfen raider from the Land of the Linnorm Kings.

You can avoid them, but they still exist in Golarion, and no matter how far you run, someday they're going to render everything you ever accomplished utterly meaningless. Linnorm Kings don't have that kind of baggage.

 

[BobROE]

You can avoid them, but they still exist in Golarion, and no matter how far you run, someday they're going to render everything you ever accomplished utterly meaningless. Linnorm Kings don't have that kind of baggage.

But can't that "someday" be 65 billion years in the future?

 

[Lwaxy]

A grand total of TWO of them are Lovecraftian in nature: Carrion Hill and From Shore to Sea. Arguably, Crucible of Chaos might also be termed "Lovecraftian" - I don't agree but I'll play it on the safe side:

That explains it, as those were the last "power play" games I played (as in, finish an AP/adventure in a certain time). It did feel very Lovecraftian to me. Could be the GM, too, my cousin is a true fan of CoC.

Unfortunately, for most official adventures I need to wait for my cousin to be done with them before they are handed down, so I only really know about half of them.

Still, I'm not in favor of Cthulhu things in my particular Golarion. My players even less so (as in they'd not even play CoC), which means for my "play all the adventures" Golarion crew (see story hour forum) I will have to do some changing around. Which is not too bad, I need to do that all the time with our ambitious plan to make it fit somehow.

Now as for billd91's comment:

I find this line of reasoning utterly bizarre. If the DM isn't interested in Lovecraftian horrors, use of them can be avoided in a campaign just as easily as avoiding a Ulfen raider from the Land of the Linnorm Kings.

In theory, yes. But if you are somewhat having to stay with the official version, as future adventures or APs might depend on assuming the Lovecraftian parts as given, it is a bit of extra work to avoid them. I guess if we would not have this silly idea of playing all of the published adventures eventually (well what I get handed down or can afford anyway), with mostly the same crew of characters but at least players, it would matter a lot less.

 

[Crothian]

You can avoid them, but they still exist in Golarion, and no matter how far you run, someday they're going to render everything you ever accomplished utterly meaningless. Linnorm Kings don't have that kind of baggage.

Not true. If it doesn't happen in the campaign then it doesn't matter to the campaign. It would be like running a Star Wars game set on Alderaan. Just because at a future date the planet gets blown up doesn't make the fun or purpose of the campaign any less.