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{Worldbuilding} Quest vs immersive fantasy and a non-zoo approach to D&D monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 8283505" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>Quick note: This is meant to be a conversation about worldbuilding, so please keep the endless (and tedious, imo) arguments about canon out of it. This thread takes the assumption that D&D canon is just a starting point; a homebrewing DM mixes and matches to their desire. Meaning, <em>worldbuilders unite!</em></p><p></p><p>To start, ever notice how almost every fantasy novel has a far more limited range of monsters than D&D? Take <em>A Song of Ice and Fire</em>, for instance. First, you have only a few races: humans, giants, Children of the Forest. For monsters, you have dragons, zombies, and the Others. Maybe there's more - I've only read the first book and am going on the tv series and memory. Either way, it is far, far more limited than D&D.</p><p></p><p>Or what about the Wheel of Time? You've basically got a dozen or so types of Shadowspawn (trollocs, myrddraal, draghkar, etc) and a handful of different animals like to'raken and a few others. For races, humans and Ogier. More diverse than GoT, but still far more limited than D&D.</p><p></p><p>This made me think about the aesthetics of a less "zoological" D&D setting and how it might play out in a campaign, or at least one in which there are a fewer number of common monsters, and most are exceedingly rare - perhaps remnants of a past age, or maybe "immigrants" from other planes that leak through. I suppose Dark Sun is the closest thing to a "limited palette" of creatures, although I can't remember how its various iterations handle monsters. I assume DM discretion, although probably with recommendations on which monsters to use (don't have any Dark Sun books handy).</p><p></p><p>So here are a few questions:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Have you created a world with a far more limited diversity of creatures (both races and monsters) than the D&D zoo? What does it look like?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If you were set the task of creating such a world, how might you do it? Say, up to about three or four races and a dozen or so monsters? What would be your "keeper monsters" and how would you approach choosing them, be it thematically or just for pure fun and/or utility? Obviously there are an infinite number of ways to do this, but it might be fun to brainstorm a bit.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Bonus question: Do you have an in-setting explanation for the vast diversity of monsters (e.g. Horrors in Earthdawn) in your world, or is it "just how things are?" Meaning, for worldbuilding nerds like myself, how do you maintain "deep verisimilitude," if only in your own mind? (Presuming that your players accept the vast range of monsters without question, because <em>it's D&D</em>).</li> </ol><p>I will say that, for myself, given that D&D is, in the end, a game, and that if in conflict, fun trumps aesthetics*, I want access to the range of D&D monsters, but I like the idea of a thematic setting, one that limits the number of common/known monsters, even if all monsters are available. Default D&D assumes a zoological world, one in which there are literally hundreds--if not thousands--of different monsters and races. Nothing wrong with that, but it creates a certain "gamey vibe." I'm thinking about different ways that one might create a more atmospheric and thematic approach, while still being open-ended about using whatever monsters one so desires.</p><p></p><p>(*Brief aside: This is not to say that fun and aesthetics must be in conflict, but I do find myself appreciating more tightly thematic settings aesthetically more than kitchen sink ones, while usually end up veering towards kitchen sink for actual game play).</p><p></p><p>To go a bit further with this, I've always enjoyed fantasy novels in which the normalcy of a relatively mundane fantasy world is "invaded" by some kind of supernatural forces, the proverbial "creatures and Dark One from legend." You know, the classic quest fantasy. It is, of course, somewhat contrived, because when you read a fantasy novel you expect the fantastical, but skilled authors will often start the reader in a relatively mundane environment, and then gradually reveal the wonders and weirdness of the world (Hey, that would be a great RPG name: <em>Wonders and Weirdness). </em>So you start in the Shire and then gradually go to more fantastical places. Or Two Rivers, Winterfell, Faldor's Farm, Gont, Caer Dallben, etc.</p><p></p><p>D&D generally takes a different approach, that of "immersion" - meaning, the PCs are already immersed in the weirdness. In fantasy, you see this in books like Steven Erikson's <em>Malazan Book of the Fallen, </em>where the story starts in median res, and there's no gradual revelation of the weirdness of the world (although, truth be told, there is - it is just that the reader's perspective starts with immersion, and doesn't have the separation that the classic quest fantasy does).</p><p></p><p>(As another aside, fantasy historian Farrah Mendlesohn wrote a book, <em>Rhetorics of Fantasy,</em> with a taxonomy of fantasy based upon how the fantastical enters the story: portal/quest, immersive, intrusive, and liminal. It is a fascinating book and has influenced my inquiry here).</p><p></p><p>Neither approach is right or wrong, they just lend themselves to different tones and atmosphere. So what I'm fundamentally curious about, and the point of this thread, is to explore ways to create a more "quest vibe" to a D&D campaign, and in particular, a more limited use of monsters, and how that relates to questions regarding quest vs. immersion, thematic vs. kitchen sink, and underlying reasons for the presence of a diversity of fantastical creatures that different DMs and "deep worldbuilders" employ.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 8283505, member: 59082"] Quick note: This is meant to be a conversation about worldbuilding, so please keep the endless (and tedious, imo) arguments about canon out of it. This thread takes the assumption that D&D canon is just a starting point; a homebrewing DM mixes and matches to their desire. Meaning, [I]worldbuilders unite![/I] To start, ever notice how almost every fantasy novel has a far more limited range of monsters than D&D? Take [I]A Song of Ice and Fire[/I], for instance. First, you have only a few races: humans, giants, Children of the Forest. For monsters, you have dragons, zombies, and the Others. Maybe there's more - I've only read the first book and am going on the tv series and memory. Either way, it is far, far more limited than D&D. Or what about the Wheel of Time? You've basically got a dozen or so types of Shadowspawn (trollocs, myrddraal, draghkar, etc) and a handful of different animals like to'raken and a few others. For races, humans and Ogier. More diverse than GoT, but still far more limited than D&D. This made me think about the aesthetics of a less "zoological" D&D setting and how it might play out in a campaign, or at least one in which there are a fewer number of common monsters, and most are exceedingly rare - perhaps remnants of a past age, or maybe "immigrants" from other planes that leak through. I suppose Dark Sun is the closest thing to a "limited palette" of creatures, although I can't remember how its various iterations handle monsters. I assume DM discretion, although probably with recommendations on which monsters to use (don't have any Dark Sun books handy). So here are a few questions: [LIST=1] [*]Have you created a world with a far more limited diversity of creatures (both races and monsters) than the D&D zoo? What does it look like? [*]If you were set the task of creating such a world, how might you do it? Say, up to about three or four races and a dozen or so monsters? What would be your "keeper monsters" and how would you approach choosing them, be it thematically or just for pure fun and/or utility? Obviously there are an infinite number of ways to do this, but it might be fun to brainstorm a bit. [*]Bonus question: Do you have an in-setting explanation for the vast diversity of monsters (e.g. Horrors in Earthdawn) in your world, or is it "just how things are?" Meaning, for worldbuilding nerds like myself, how do you maintain "deep verisimilitude," if only in your own mind? (Presuming that your players accept the vast range of monsters without question, because [I]it's D&D[/I]). [/LIST] I will say that, for myself, given that D&D is, in the end, a game, and that if in conflict, fun trumps aesthetics*, I want access to the range of D&D monsters, but I like the idea of a thematic setting, one that limits the number of common/known monsters, even if all monsters are available. Default D&D assumes a zoological world, one in which there are literally hundreds--if not thousands--of different monsters and races. Nothing wrong with that, but it creates a certain "gamey vibe." I'm thinking about different ways that one might create a more atmospheric and thematic approach, while still being open-ended about using whatever monsters one so desires. (*Brief aside: This is not to say that fun and aesthetics must be in conflict, but I do find myself appreciating more tightly thematic settings aesthetically more than kitchen sink ones, while usually end up veering towards kitchen sink for actual game play). To go a bit further with this, I've always enjoyed fantasy novels in which the normalcy of a relatively mundane fantasy world is "invaded" by some kind of supernatural forces, the proverbial "creatures and Dark One from legend." You know, the classic quest fantasy. It is, of course, somewhat contrived, because when you read a fantasy novel you expect the fantastical, but skilled authors will often start the reader in a relatively mundane environment, and then gradually reveal the wonders and weirdness of the world (Hey, that would be a great RPG name: [I]Wonders and Weirdness). [/I]So you start in the Shire and then gradually go to more fantastical places. Or Two Rivers, Winterfell, Faldor's Farm, Gont, Caer Dallben, etc. D&D generally takes a different approach, that of "immersion" - meaning, the PCs are already immersed in the weirdness. In fantasy, you see this in books like Steven Erikson's [I]Malazan Book of the Fallen, [/I]where the story starts in median res, and there's no gradual revelation of the weirdness of the world (although, truth be told, there is - it is just that the reader's perspective starts with immersion, and doesn't have the separation that the classic quest fantasy does). (As another aside, fantasy historian Farrah Mendlesohn wrote a book, [I]Rhetorics of Fantasy,[/I] with a taxonomy of fantasy based upon how the fantastical enters the story: portal/quest, immersive, intrusive, and liminal. It is a fascinating book and has influenced my inquiry here). Neither approach is right or wrong, they just lend themselves to different tones and atmosphere. So what I'm fundamentally curious about, and the point of this thread, is to explore ways to create a more "quest vibe" to a D&D campaign, and in particular, a more limited use of monsters, and how that relates to questions regarding quest vs. immersion, thematic vs. kitchen sink, and underlying reasons for the presence of a diversity of fantastical creatures that different DMs and "deep worldbuilders" employ. [/QUOTE]
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