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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7768363" data-attributes="member: 20564">The article mentions failure, while the chart shows danger -- these are VERY different concepts when discussing &quot;old school&quot; vs. &quot;new school&quot;.Failure is not only common in &quot;new school&quot;, but at times is to be embraced.&nbsp; Because failure isn't the boolean &quot;you're dead, game over&quot; common to old school, but another fork of what's being told.&nbsp; &quot;Failing forward&quot; is a concept very new school, where the idea is that the GM (see, still GM-lead in this) reworks failures that would stop a game cold.&nbsp; For example, if there's no adventure if the party doesn't find the hidden door in the bookcase, in an old school system if you fail the search roll then the game halts -- there is no way forward.&nbsp; No fun.&nbsp; But in a new school &quot;fail forward&quot; approach there's a cost to missing the roll but it doesn't stop the game.&nbsp; Perhaps they took so long that that the encounter a patrol coming out of the exit, and unless they work very quickly the hidden lair is now on alert.New school games like FATE actually encourage mechanically players to fail in several ways.&nbsp; To continue to use Fate, first the GM effectively bribes the players to play out of one their flaws to the detriment of the party in exchange for currency to activate their abilities later.&nbsp; And if your character is badly hurt, it's better to take the loss because if the the GM forces the loss then the results are a lot worse.So failure is actually embraced as much or more in new school games since the effects are tailored more towards the GM telling a good story then penalizing the players by having them sit out due to character death or miss part of adventures due to poor rolls.Getting to how the chart is labelled, Risk (of which Danger is a subset) is something that is present in both old school and new school games.&nbsp; Statements like &quot;New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.&quot; is just speaking from ignorance.&nbsp; Sorry to be blunt, there are a good majority of new school games that can be just as deadly, or inflict permanent issues of characters.&nbsp; For that type of game - Superhero games won't have death commonly regardless if they are old school like Champions or new school like Icons.&nbsp; Each genre has it's own aspects of risk.&nbsp; Now, new school are perhaps not as punitive about it -- doing everything right and a single roll kills you is more of a factor of the oldest RPGs, but that's something even some old school RPGs went away from.I just find this article to have either a limited exposure to new school games, a misunderstanding of them, or is comparing across genres because there are more variety out there, and different genres have different risk levels.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7768363, member: 20564"] The article mentions failure, while the chart shows danger -- these are VERY different concepts when discussing "old school" vs. "new school". Failure is not only common in "new school", but at times is to be embraced. Because failure isn't the boolean "you're dead, game over" common to old school, but another fork of what's being told. "Failing forward" is a concept very new school, where the idea is that the GM (see, still GM-lead in this) reworks failures that would stop a game cold. For example, if there's no adventure if the party doesn't find the hidden door in the bookcase, in an old school system if you fail the search roll then the game halts -- there is no way forward. No fun. But in a new school "fail forward" approach there's a cost to missing the roll but it doesn't stop the game. Perhaps they took so long that that the encounter a patrol coming out of the exit, and unless they work very quickly the hidden lair is now on alert. New school games like FATE actually encourage mechanically players to fail in several ways. To continue to use Fate, first the GM effectively bribes the players to play out of one their flaws to the detriment of the party in exchange for currency to activate their abilities later. And if your character is badly hurt, it's better to take the loss because if the the GM forces the loss then the results are a lot worse. So failure is actually embraced as much or more in new school games since the effects are tailored more towards the GM telling a good story then penalizing the players by having them sit out due to character death or miss part of adventures due to poor rolls. Getting to how the chart is labelled, Risk (of which Danger is a subset) is something that is present in both old school and new school games. Statements like "New School doesn’t [B]require[/B] cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway." is just speaking from ignorance. Sorry to be blunt, there are a good majority of new school games that can be just as deadly, or inflict permanent issues of characters. For that type of game - Superhero games won't have death commonly regardless if they are old school like Champions or new school like Icons. Each genre has it's own aspects of risk. Now, new school are perhaps not as punitive about it -- doing everything right and a single roll kills you is more of a factor of the oldest RPGs, but that's something even some old school RPGs went away from. I just find this article to have either a limited exposure to new school games, a misunderstanding of them, or is comparing across genres because there are more variety out there, and different genres have different risk levels. [/QUOTE]

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