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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7768490" data-attributes="member: 6785785">I agree that AD&D is a deadlier game. I just think how much so tends to be overstated.And I think what’s often overlooked is investment in character. As I mentioned in my post, and which you chose to not quote...if you don’t invest in your character, then who cares if he dies? I had a buddy who had Drexel the Fighter, who met a grisly fate. Then there was Drexel II, Drexel III, and so on. Eventually they were replaced with Lexerd the Fighter. The game doesn’t really end, right? Is it really all that different for one player to make three consecutive characters that all die and another to play one character that has a couple of close calls? And ultimately a lot of this comes down to optional rules and what’s implemented, right? A lot of the things you mention are options. I mean, critical hits weren’t an official thing until 3E right? And as much as they’re fun, they’re far more detrimental to PCs than to monsters. 5E has a ton of optional rules to make it more deadly. So I don’t think it’s a matter of the system. At least not with D&D. Not really, no. There’s a mechanic called Stress that each PC has. It’s a rrsource that allows them to resist harm or push themselves and their abilities. However, if they accumulate 8 Stress, then they’re out of play, knocked out or senseless or whatever. When this happens, the PC gains a Trauma, which is a permanent effect. Once you have four traumas, the PC’s career is over.I wouldn’t say so, no. Therr’s more than one way to play, especially once you consider other games beyond D&D. If the game is designed to give the players some narrative power (like Stress in Blades in the Dark) then you’d certainly not be doing it wrong.Yes, there is. I am denying it. How can we quantify and compare something like 1 point of Constitution to a more narrative element like failing to get justice for a PC’s murdered brother? Which is “worse”? You seem to be focused entirely on mechanics....failing a skill check, losing a level, and so on. But what about the story elements where a PC can fail? Or how they can be harmed in ways that don’t adjust their character sheet?  Again, limiting the discussion to editions of D&D then I would say that the older the edition, the deadlier the game. The size of the delta is debatable; the game has always included ways to come back from the dead, and optional rules to make it harder or easier, so i think many folks site it as sooo much deadlier when it’s really only moderately so. But that’s a matter of opinion.But since we’re not solely talking D&D but instead seem to be talking about “classic” versus “modern” game design, I think the premise is simply wrong. I’ll have to ask you to be specific; what game are you describing? Again, to site Blades in the Dark, players roll D6s when they attempt an Action. On a 1-3, they fail. Often horribly so. On a 4-5 they succeed but with a setback or complication. On a 6 they fully succeed. The better the PC is at something, or the more willing they are to push themselves and take some Stress, the more dice they roll. So their chances to succeed go up. But there is still plenty of chance for failure.The other narrative games I’m familiar with like Dungeon World or City of Mist also allow for failure. Roll 2D6 and add a bonus, 6 or lower and you fail, 7-9 and you succeed with a complication, 10 or more and you fully succeed.I’m not sure what game you’re siting that simply doesn’t allow for failure; can you be specific?Also, to use one of your examples....”you climb the wall, but there’s a guard”; you describe this as not a failure. Why not? What’s the character actually trying to do? Simply climb a wall? Or climb a wall so they can infiltrate a location unnoticed? Probably the latter, in which case, a guard being there means they failed, or that they can possibly fail. So again, I don’t think that there is no failure in new school games simply because they function differently.</blockquote>

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