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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dragoner" data-source="post: 8476599" data-attributes="member: 6943731"><p>Guns finally beat them. There was a discussion yesterday in my discord with some Russians about Ivan the Terrible, and one thing is that he breaks away, and the Mongols come back with Ottoman artillery and in 1587 level Moscow and take hundreds of thousands away as slaves. This though is a time when muskets begin to rise in importance, and the Mongols don't have a force to oppose the Streltsy - Musketeers. Even in that time they often had numbers such as outnumbering other forces like the battle with Tsar Ivan was 6,000 of us to 80,000 Tatars (Mongols). They retain importance for another couple of centuries except slowy time has its way and they can't grow as much population-wise, living in arid lands.</p></blockquote><p></p>