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Worlds of Design: Baseline Assumptions of Fantasy RPGs
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8128190" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Exactly. If you learn to use a sword, you can stab someone with a sword. </p><p></p><p>If you learn magic you can kill someone, read their mind, protect yourself, protect others, create walls, see the future, alter the landscape, grow crops, kill crops. </p><p></p><p>You know... MAGIC. It is a far far more versatile and useful tool than that three feet of sharp steel. And (if we assume the game rules), you can still fight better than a peasant. </p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, there would be a noteworthy amount of wizards. </p><p></p><p>How? </p><p></p><p>You have stated that a wizard needs to spend 20 years of dedicated study with no time for anything else to become a level 5 wizard. Who can afford to do that? </p><p></p><p>Only the wealthy, like the nobles. </p><p></p><p>But. the inheriting nobles can't become wizards, because they don't have time. So all the wizards have to be... well, they can't be second sons, those guys are the back-up for the heir. So the third sons. </p><p></p><p>How do you imagine that conversation goes? </p><p></p><p>"Okay, Leo, you are going to learn how to run the estate. Neo, your brother might die, and the job is important, so you will also learn alongside him. Jerry, we can afford to lose you so you are going to learn how to bend the fundamental laws of reality and reshape the world in ways that will define how your brother's can rule their land, offer our family immense power and prestige, and protect us from harm." </p><p></p><p>I mean, could be me, but one of those sounds like it is far more core to keeping the family in power than the other. </p><p></p><p>And that is the problem you are not confronting within DnD. </p><p></p><p>The nobility learned the arts of war because fighting war was expected of them to protect the kingdom, but also so they could protect themselves and their lands. But how many times in Fantasy are magical threats presented? How many times is being able to identify magic, curses, and knowing the lore of such things vital to the defense of the land? </p><p></p><p>Many of the other things they learned? Fashion, Art, ect? It was a combination of needing something to occupy their time and prestige. Of course you knew the latest fashions, that showed you were wealthy, well-connected and important. </p><p></p><p>But instead of saying that DnD nobles would be exactly like the nobility of the European medieval ages (and by the way, ignoring all the different types of nobility from other traditions) and then trying to stack magic on top of it, you need to start with the baseline. Noble's jobs were protecting their people and the land of the King from attack. And, in a world with magic, magic would be a key part of that job. It is too useful of a tool, it offers too many opportunities. They would cut out learning dance and art and fashion. Those are their to make you look better, and offer opportunities for gossip and intelligence gathering. Instead they would look into designing familiars, they would study arcane formula. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying they wouldn't show off and attempt prestige, but the ways they would do that would shift, because the noble with fullest grasp on magic? They are the most powerful person in the room.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, lets look at what a level 1 3.5 wizard could do. </p><p></p><p>Skimming the rules I see that they can create a familiar, know all level 0 spells and if I assume intelligence of 12, four 1st level spells. But that is just starting out, they can of course scribe more, so a noble's magical library is going to really just give them the run of things at 1st level. </p><p></p><p>So, what can we do.</p><p></p><p>Detect Poison -> IE Is this goblet going to kill me</p><p></p><p>Battle magic (I see acid splash, daze. ray of frost. all certainly weaker, but they are there) </p><p></p><p>Arcane mark is interesting, because it allows you to mark a person as well as an object. It only lasts a month, but that is a good way to get a courier "secured" is to mark them as being trusted.</p><p></p><p>Moving on to level 1 spells</p><p></p><p>Alarm becomes less useful, only 2 hours of protection, but still a good way to seal a meeting. </p><p></p><p>Even better battle magic </p><p></p><p>Summoning magic, interesting. Doesn't look like it would be too useful at low levels, 1 round per level duration, but within a few levels the wizard could summon a companion to fight for them, bypassing the need to fight themselves. </p><p></p><p>Erase is a way to destroy documents, again good for secrets</p><p></p><p>And of course, Charm Person was much much more powerful back in the day, what with the person not immediately realizing they had been charmed </p><p></p><p>So... all of that still sounds incredibly useful. Less useful, sure, but with Silent spell a few levels and Charm Person, you basically can win at most mundane negotiations. And that is a big deal by itself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a cop out. I'm saying the assumptions of nobility make no sense in the context of the rest of the game. </p><p></p><p>Also, saying DnD is weird also does not excuse the idea that foriegners are magic, or that most wizards would be strange non-human people. Just because I can get away with making that assumption does not mean it is a good assumption. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, buying magic is lazier than putting in the work to do it yourself. </p><p></p><p>Just like a noble doesn't need to understand economics, they can hire an accountant</p><p></p><p>And they don't need to understand war, they can hire a general</p><p></p><p>And they don't need to understand foreign languages, they can hire a translator. </p><p></p><p>And the more important the job they delegate is, and the more of those jobs they delegate... the more likely they end up losing the title of Noble to the people who are actually doing the job. </p><p></p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8128190, member: 6801228"] Exactly. If you learn to use a sword, you can stab someone with a sword. If you learn magic you can kill someone, read their mind, protect yourself, protect others, create walls, see the future, alter the landscape, grow crops, kill crops. You know... MAGIC. It is a far far more versatile and useful tool than that three feet of sharp steel. And (if we assume the game rules), you can still fight better than a peasant. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, there would be a noteworthy amount of wizards. How? You have stated that a wizard needs to spend 20 years of dedicated study with no time for anything else to become a level 5 wizard. Who can afford to do that? Only the wealthy, like the nobles. But. the inheriting nobles can't become wizards, because they don't have time. So all the wizards have to be... well, they can't be second sons, those guys are the back-up for the heir. So the third sons. How do you imagine that conversation goes? "Okay, Leo, you are going to learn how to run the estate. Neo, your brother might die, and the job is important, so you will also learn alongside him. Jerry, we can afford to lose you so you are going to learn how to bend the fundamental laws of reality and reshape the world in ways that will define how your brother's can rule their land, offer our family immense power and prestige, and protect us from harm." I mean, could be me, but one of those sounds like it is far more core to keeping the family in power than the other. And that is the problem you are not confronting within DnD. The nobility learned the arts of war because fighting war was expected of them to protect the kingdom, but also so they could protect themselves and their lands. But how many times in Fantasy are magical threats presented? How many times is being able to identify magic, curses, and knowing the lore of such things vital to the defense of the land? Many of the other things they learned? Fashion, Art, ect? It was a combination of needing something to occupy their time and prestige. Of course you knew the latest fashions, that showed you were wealthy, well-connected and important. But instead of saying that DnD nobles would be exactly like the nobility of the European medieval ages (and by the way, ignoring all the different types of nobility from other traditions) and then trying to stack magic on top of it, you need to start with the baseline. Noble's jobs were protecting their people and the land of the King from attack. And, in a world with magic, magic would be a key part of that job. It is too useful of a tool, it offers too many opportunities. They would cut out learning dance and art and fashion. Those are their to make you look better, and offer opportunities for gossip and intelligence gathering. Instead they would look into designing familiars, they would study arcane formula. I'm not saying they wouldn't show off and attempt prestige, but the ways they would do that would shift, because the noble with fullest grasp on magic? They are the most powerful person in the room. Okay, lets look at what a level 1 3.5 wizard could do. Skimming the rules I see that they can create a familiar, know all level 0 spells and if I assume intelligence of 12, four 1st level spells. But that is just starting out, they can of course scribe more, so a noble's magical library is going to really just give them the run of things at 1st level. So, what can we do. Detect Poison -> IE Is this goblet going to kill me Battle magic (I see acid splash, daze. ray of frost. all certainly weaker, but they are there) Arcane mark is interesting, because it allows you to mark a person as well as an object. It only lasts a month, but that is a good way to get a courier "secured" is to mark them as being trusted. Moving on to level 1 spells Alarm becomes less useful, only 2 hours of protection, but still a good way to seal a meeting. Even better battle magic Summoning magic, interesting. Doesn't look like it would be too useful at low levels, 1 round per level duration, but within a few levels the wizard could summon a companion to fight for them, bypassing the need to fight themselves. Erase is a way to destroy documents, again good for secrets And of course, Charm Person was much much more powerful back in the day, what with the person not immediately realizing they had been charmed So... all of that still sounds incredibly useful. Less useful, sure, but with Silent spell a few levels and Charm Person, you basically can win at most mundane negotiations. And that is a big deal by itself. This is a cop out. I'm saying the assumptions of nobility make no sense in the context of the rest of the game. Also, saying DnD is weird also does not excuse the idea that foriegners are magic, or that most wizards would be strange non-human people. Just because I can get away with making that assumption does not mean it is a good assumption. No, buying magic is lazier than putting in the work to do it yourself. Just like a noble doesn't need to understand economics, they can hire an accountant And they don't need to understand war, they can hire a general And they don't need to understand foreign languages, they can hire a translator. And the more important the job they delegate is, and the more of those jobs they delegate... the more likely they end up losing the title of Noble to the people who are actually doing the job. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/QUOTE]
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