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Worlds of Design: Baseline Assumptions of Fantasy RPGs
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8129242" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Right. Do you know how long it takes to become a fully-certified neurosurgeon? </p><p></p><p>12 years, max. </p><p></p><p>4 years of medical school. </p><p>1 year internship</p><p>5 to 7 years of being in a residency program. </p><p></p><p>After that you would be a fully qualified neurosurgeon. </p><p></p><p>To be a fully qualified wizard in 5e means to be level 3 (before that you are really an apprentice). In 3.5 it meant to be level 1. </p><p></p><p>But you guys are proposing that reaching level 3 would take <strong>30 years</strong> That is 2.5 times longer, but considering education isn't linear, you may consider it something like proposing it is 150 times harder (log scale). </p><p></p><p>So, either it is many times harder than becoming a neurosurgeon, or a wizard's training should only last about a decade. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and you don't need a car to get to work, you can make it by walking or riding a horse. </p><p></p><p>You keep approaching this by saying how nobles were in reality. Reality does not have magic spells that accomplish these tasks. The very fact that magic is possible changes everything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You know, how many rich people today have guards instead of an electronic alarm system to protect their house? </p><p></p><p>I mean, they are rich, they could afford 24/7 protection. Think Bill Gates has guards posted outside his house every night to protect it?</p><p></p><p>Also, I love how the combat ability to never be disarmed or to make your weapons stronger is "marginally useful in very specific circumstances" but all nobles <strong>have </strong>to be educated in arms and armor. Which... you know, is also only useful in a fight, can be disarmed and doesn't do you any good if you don't have armor and weapons on you. Almost like it is... what is that word, a specific circumstance. </p><p></p><p>And, again, how many people keep a gun for home defense instead of a shield and sword? Or a club even. </p><p></p><p>And, a Noble could very easily be disarmed of serious weaponry (likely to keep his dagger for eating and defense) but are you going to have him remove his jewelry? A single piece with a crystal and you have an arcane focus.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everything we are talking about is "fluff" and the settings were written for older editions. You are basically arguing "The things written before 5e are still the same, so 5e couldn't have changed the assumptions of magic, because the 3.5 lore wasn't magically changed when 5e was released." </p><p></p><p>Obviously you need to rewrite the setting for it to actually change. But 5e has changed the assumptions that went into these settings. I don't even need to convince you of that, because Minigiant has said that I need to stop using "5e's more permissive assumptions" meaning that he at least acknowledges this, and since you haven't disagreed that 5e assumptions are different than 3.5 assumptions, I can place you in the same category until otherwise corrected. </p><p></p><p>So, the game changed, and the settings didn't follow... except, look at some of the settings that are released. </p><p></p><p>FR is still the same. </p><p>Eberron is Broad Magic. </p><p>Ravnica is incredibly magical with everyone casting spells</p><p>Wildemount has a lot of spellcasters. </p><p></p><p>That is the majority of the settings published for 5e... and they seem to support my point. </p><p></p><p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I have to say you are dead wrong. </p><p></p><p>2e heavily conflicts with the assumptions of 5e. </p><p></p><p>Yes, Old DnD has these assumptions, but Old DnD is a subset of DnD, and if someone went into a 5e game expecting a 2e experience they would be sorely disappointed. </p><p></p><p>I mean, just off the top of my head with things specifically about magic that aren't true any more. </p><p></p><p>Arcane Spell Failure in armor (all armor) </p><p>Vancian Casting</p><p>No At-will magic</p><p>Stacking multiple buff spells</p><p>All spells increasing in power with character level, not which slot you use. </p><p>Magic School Specialization</p><p>The differences in Spell Resistance</p><p>Your Familiar dying costing XP</p><p>Metamagic feats</p><p></p><p>That is just off the top of my head, and those have some big implications for magic in the setting and the game. </p><p></p><p>And DnD doesn't need to live with those assumptions, those are old assumptions. We need to pay more attention to the new assumptions, unless we are playing the older version of the game. </p><p></p><p>Which most of us aren't.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8129242, member: 6801228"] Right. Do you know how long it takes to become a fully-certified neurosurgeon? 12 years, max. 4 years of medical school. 1 year internship 5 to 7 years of being in a residency program. After that you would be a fully qualified neurosurgeon. To be a fully qualified wizard in 5e means to be level 3 (before that you are really an apprentice). In 3.5 it meant to be level 1. But you guys are proposing that reaching level 3 would take [B]30 years[/B] That is 2.5 times longer, but considering education isn't linear, you may consider it something like proposing it is 150 times harder (log scale). So, either it is many times harder than becoming a neurosurgeon, or a wizard's training should only last about a decade. Yes, and you don't need a car to get to work, you can make it by walking or riding a horse. You keep approaching this by saying how nobles were in reality. Reality does not have magic spells that accomplish these tasks. The very fact that magic is possible changes everything. You know, how many rich people today have guards instead of an electronic alarm system to protect their house? I mean, they are rich, they could afford 24/7 protection. Think Bill Gates has guards posted outside his house every night to protect it? Also, I love how the combat ability to never be disarmed or to make your weapons stronger is "marginally useful in very specific circumstances" but all nobles [B]have [/B]to be educated in arms and armor. Which... you know, is also only useful in a fight, can be disarmed and doesn't do you any good if you don't have armor and weapons on you. Almost like it is... what is that word, a specific circumstance. And, again, how many people keep a gun for home defense instead of a shield and sword? Or a club even. And, a Noble could very easily be disarmed of serious weaponry (likely to keep his dagger for eating and defense) but are you going to have him remove his jewelry? A single piece with a crystal and you have an arcane focus. Everything we are talking about is "fluff" and the settings were written for older editions. You are basically arguing "The things written before 5e are still the same, so 5e couldn't have changed the assumptions of magic, because the 3.5 lore wasn't magically changed when 5e was released." Obviously you need to rewrite the setting for it to actually change. But 5e has changed the assumptions that went into these settings. I don't even need to convince you of that, because Minigiant has said that I need to stop using "5e's more permissive assumptions" meaning that he at least acknowledges this, and since you haven't disagreed that 5e assumptions are different than 3.5 assumptions, I can place you in the same category until otherwise corrected. So, the game changed, and the settings didn't follow... except, look at some of the settings that are released. FR is still the same. Eberron is Broad Magic. Ravnica is incredibly magical with everyone casting spells Wildemount has a lot of spellcasters. That is the majority of the settings published for 5e... and they seem to support my point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I have to say you are dead wrong. 2e heavily conflicts with the assumptions of 5e. Yes, Old DnD has these assumptions, but Old DnD is a subset of DnD, and if someone went into a 5e game expecting a 2e experience they would be sorely disappointed. I mean, just off the top of my head with things specifically about magic that aren't true any more. Arcane Spell Failure in armor (all armor) Vancian Casting No At-will magic Stacking multiple buff spells All spells increasing in power with character level, not which slot you use. Magic School Specialization The differences in Spell Resistance Your Familiar dying costing XP Metamagic feats That is just off the top of my head, and those have some big implications for magic in the setting and the game. And DnD doesn't need to live with those assumptions, those are old assumptions. We need to pay more attention to the new assumptions, unless we are playing the older version of the game. Which most of us aren't. [/QUOTE]
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