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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8130519" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Which is fair, except it leaves me with a problem, what rules should I use then? Your wizard was the apprentice to an NPC wizard? How did that happen? You are an eldritch knight who studied how to mix steel and spell? Cool, so how did that happen? Were you studying under an NPC or from ancient texts of someone else doing that same thing? Even the 0.5% rule we got from the 3.5 DMG that Minigiant accepted, that was a purely NPC rule, which led to hundreds of wizards. How am I supposed to frame that many magic users? I know a lot of these questions don't have good answers, but I'm using the only tools I have to work with to try and see what assumptions the game is making about the game world. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So, you are just clinging to an assertion with no basis in anything. That you must be born with some special something to learn magic. It isn't like mathIt isn't like scienceIt isn't like musicIt isn't like artYou can't be taught magic unless you are born with the ability to understand magic.1) Would you like to provide some basis for a third level character being vastly more experienced than the population?The DMG says that they would still be local heroes by this stage, with "fledgling abilities". In fact, at the next tier (5 through 10) it says you have "mastered the basics of their class features" and since I remember talk that levels 1 and 2 are essentially apprentice levels. It takes until level 11 for the DMG to say that you are "true paragons of the world, set well apart from the masses) 2) The text did tell us. You aren't a genius master thief who cracked the arcane secrets of the universe, you are a pickpocket who decided to enhance your trade with magic. That tells us that what you did by 3rd level is not that special.And you seem to be arguing that the existence of rules for a Jedi doesn't imply that you aren't the only unique Jedi in existence. Clearly the answer lies somewhere between those numbers number, but let us look at what else we know of Jedi. They had to be born Jedi (which makes them completely different wizards already) They had to be trainedThere were enough of them to have a galaxy spanning order that held high esteem in politics and led armies across the entire galaxy...Huh. I wonder how that happened. I mean, if they had to be born, and trained, and they had to be trained from a very young age til their adulthood, how did they also become so deeply embedded into politics and the government of the galaxy that they would be the first choice for diplomatic missions and be called upon to be the generals in the Republics war? It is almost like... having powers no one else had made them important enough to become a political entity. Wonder if anyone could have been taught how to be a Jedi instead of needing to be born to it if more political people would have sent their kids to the Jedi Academy to be part of that political structure? It is not a fallacy. If I spent a decade studying law, I would learn law. If I spent a decade studying medicine, I would learn medicine.If I spent a decade studying music, I would learn music. If I spent a decade studying coding, I would learn coding. Tabula Rasa. The Blank Slate. People are not born with their skills. They must learn them. Yes, some people find learning certain things easier than others. But that does not make people who struggle to learn those skills incapable of learning those skills. People are not nearly as limited in ability as you seem to think they are.No, the characters wouldn't.If I am poisoned, and the cleric knows lesser restoration, there is no mystery or doubt to the fact that they can cure me. There is no "but only if the god's will it" because it will succeed. Every time. No exceptions. There is no spell failure chance for a cleric calling a divine miracle to heal the sick. You can play it up like there is, but there simply is nothing mysterious. How many times can they cast it? They know that answer. It is constant. You don't wake up some mornings with fewer spell slots than normal, or more than normal, unless you have leveled up. A 3rd level cleric always has the same number of slots, four 1st, two 2nd. And yes, I know, "just because the game rules are written that way for ease of play doesn't mean it is real and true in the world" But, again, if I can't use the rules of the game to interact with the game world, then how can we talk about any base assumptions of the game world? I could say that divine magic is mysterious and that trying to cure a person of poison could just as easily open a portal to hell and cause my soul to be dragged in chains to eternal torment. There is no way for that to happen, the rules don't allow it to happen, and there is no indication of how that could possibly happen though. So... if it can't happen, why would I think it is a possibility that it might happen? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------They seem to be PHB description of a wizard says "The closest a wizard is likely to come to an ordinary life is working as a sage or lecturer in a library or university, teaching others the secrets of the multiverse. Other wizards sell their services as diviners, serve in military forces, or pursue lives of crime and domination." So, your normal life for a wizard involves teaching at a library or university. That is a school teaching magic by definition.FRAnd the War Wizards of Cormyr aren't evil, and let us see, just how many Wizard Guilds are there.War Wizards of CormyrRed Wizards of ThayArcane Brotherhood of LuskanBlack CloaksBrotherhood of the Black HandBrotherhood of the CloakCircle of Reilloch DomayrGuild Arcane of CalimshanHigh House of Magic of Ravens BluffInverted TowerMages of SaruunNimbral LordsOrder of the Many-Starred Cloak of NeverwinterSeven of WaterdeepSorceller's Encapsulate of the town of DaggerfordWatchful Order of Magists and Protectors of WaterdeepWondermenThat is 17 major organizations. And a good half of them aren't evil. And some of them are in very small places. There are also according to the FR wiki 1,592 wizards of major note within the setting.So, FR and Wildemount are about the same, and that gives us two settings with a lot of organized wizard's guilds that aren't evil.What about Greyhawk?Welp, very first thing that came up was the Council of Wizards who supported the North Kingdom. "The single largest group of independent Aerdy mages outside of the cities of Rel Deven" with 60 members. The city of Rel Deven has the Eldritch lords who "acted as sages and tutors to the noble houses of the Great Kingdom" much like the Silent Ones of Keoland. So... I've just started looking and I've found three different orders of wizards working for three different governments,  none of them mentioning this Suel place.Ah, and here is someone posting a list gathered on canonfire.com, from oerthjournal #3Guild of Wizardy of GreyhawkSagacious Society of NyrondSorcerous Nexus of Rel AstraZashassar of EkbirUnited Artificers of IrongateSociety of Magi of GreyhawkCouncil of Wizards of WinethaSilent Ones of KeolandConclave Arcanum of DyversSign of the Red Talisman of ZeifEldritch Lords of Rel DevenSorcerous Union of Radigast CitySociety of Enlightened Mages of Veluna CitySilver Consortium of VerboboncNational Academy of Wizardy of Niole DraSea Mages of GradsulIlluminated Ones of ExagScholars of the Arcane of Rel AstraWarlocks of MolagOrder of the Inner Flame of SefmurKeepers of the Flan of Nevond NevnendWizardholme of UrnstWizards of the Coast of MonmurgWrinkle Academy in VerboboncThat is another 24 wizard's organizations. I also don't see any mention of Iuz Empire in that list, so probably at least one more there, unless I'm missing itSeems just as magical as FR with wizard's deeply involved in the workings of various kingdoms. That brings us to 3 settings. Well, Four, because Ravnica and I can count eberron, so if I have 5/6 already... seems like that is the baseline. Now, few of these are countries ruled by wizards, I'll grant that. But it is showing that every setting seems to have multiple organizations of wizards that are politically active and helping to shape their kingdoms. And so... why can't they be nobles? With the sheer number of Wizard guilds I've put out on the table, many of whom are working directly for the governments of their respective kingdoms, what basis do we have for saying that wizards can't be political entities? Can't be nobility? And really, it comes down to the thing you said. Players go forth with the idea that society is run by non-magical people. There is no greater reason to it, it doesn't make sense within the logical context of the setting. We just don't assume people use magic. Despite the, clearly making use of magic.</blockquote>

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