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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8132059" data-attributes="member: 82106">I wasn't arguing that wizards are just as common as fighters. Just that they make up a substantial percentage of rulers (and thus presumably of other ranks in the nobility, since all these societies are pretty much structured that way). If I extend that to 'casters', then we have to count the clerics, druids and rangers as well, and the bards (though I don't recall a bardic NPC listed). Then there are 'magical figures' like dragons and such which also appear in small numbers. But if you go back to the DMG, there are certainly 1 classed figure per 100 humans (1 per 50 demi-humans). 20% of these are magic users (of which about 15% are illusionists). Another 20% are clerics. Specialized classes aren't touched upon, but presumably there are also rangers amongst the fighters (which are 44% of all classed NPCs). The DMG never attempts to pin down level distribution amongst this group. However, we see that class abilities in the level 1-3 range are quite common amongst NPCs in the encounter tables, the Monster Manual, etc. Figures with class abilities up to 6-7th level are typical leader types in many groups (orcs, bandits, pirates, merchants, patrols, etc.). Given the types and levels of followers as another input, we can conclude that NPCs up to 3rd level in various classes are not exceptional. They form the basic professional cadre of military and other combat-adjacent professions. Presumably a large percentage of them are drawn from the nobility in a medievalistic feudalistic type of setting.So we can conclude that the nobility contains quite a range of casters, which make up as much as 45% of all classed NPCs. The DMG does go on, in the following sections to explain logically how most PCs and their associates are probably nobility, and the rest are probably from wealthy backgrounds of other types. I would think it wouldn't be going too far to say that the vast majority, maybe practically all, magic users are thus noble, though of course few of them will be titled. Still, we see from Greyhawk that titled magic users are a thing, if somewhat less common. Likewise for clerics, though a ruling cleric does at least least imply some sort of theocratic state structure. Still, many medieval prelates were powerful nobles in their own right, there's no reason to assume this is not the case in D&D worlds.Honestly, the idea that people would study magic/devote themselves to the priesthood and NOT use the powers gained thus to become influential and assume leadership positions in the world seems absurd. While some wizards are no doubt recluses or whatever, I question whether that would even be realistically the best route to success. As we see with the top levels of science and other pursuits in the real world, collaboration and cross-pollination of ideas, studying with other master, etc. is the most common recipe for great success. Even in ancient times philosophers banded together to discuss their ideas and advance their knowledge. IMHO the most advanced wizards would be situated in seats of power, and if not being actual rulers would be vital associates of those who were, and often quite active in the intellectual, spiritual, and political life of their communities. In fact, most of the rules of AD&D, and its settings (which are pretty much all extant settings, except Eberron) seem to envisage that.So, while I can buy the argument that some rulers with mediocre personal magic talent are best advised to advance as fighters, etc. it seems perfectly natural and reasonable to assume that a significant subset are magically inclined. At the highest levels, those figures will undoubtedly be the most powerful in existence, as nothing really tops a high level wizard or cleric! In fact it would seem to me that such would almost inevitably rule whatever they wanted (and thus we must conclude they have a lot of equivalent competition, since they don't).</blockquote>

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