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Worlds of Design: Chaotic Neutral is the Worst
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<blockquote data-quote="DWChancellor" data-source="post: 7815071" data-attributes="member: 96184"><p>I agree with Celebrim that published materials have poor discipline in terms of the "alienness" of extraplanar strongly aligned creatures. I lean a lot on the alienness of my supernatural NPCs and I'd like to think my players' reactions confirm that I do a descent job.</p><p></p><p>That drow are evil is obviously true. I see them as being "chaotic" more than "lawful" because the basis of their society is the strongest wins (only the ends matter). This I see as a chaotic principle. Chaotic societies (etc.) aren't necessarily <em>unstructured</em>. What structure the Drow have is imposed directly by Lolth and would mutate or disappear along with Lolth (as we see it does in all Drow exceptions from Jarlaxle's troop to non-Lolth worshipping Drow).</p><p></p><p>I don't remember if it was here on Enworld or not, but I read a very good article arguing that tribal societies are chaotic in D&D alignment. The chieftain is selected for strength and while they may impose a structure and the appearance of "law" it is on the basis of their personal notions and strength (i.e. Lolth enforcing Drow societies' "norms" by punishing those who are <strong>caught</strong> violating them, but rewarding those who <strong>get away with things </strong>without being caught.) If Lolth disappeared, everything would be reordered by whoever stepped into the power vacuum.</p><p></p><p>In a lawful society these norms would occur by habit or rote with members of the society obeying as a matter of course and not because of the direct threat posed by those stronger. The more I type the more this reminds me of descriptions of Demonic societies.</p><p></p><p>So when I try and differentiate lawful societies and chaotic ones, it isn't based on whether there is an appearance of "structure" but whether that "structure" is based on direct threat (strength of the leaders) or general consensus (following norms).</p><p></p><p><strong>* </strong><em> **</em></p><p></p><p>I think part of this is how we are defining "authority." For me, if the authority is a direct threat from someone stronger, that isn't necessarily lawful.</p><p></p><p>I think there is a lot more room for interesting discussion in "would a Chaotic God tolerate or approve of lawful servants." For me, that would depend on exactly how they are chaotic. Lolth isn't chaotic because she likes a disordered mess like the Slaad; she is chaotic because she wants everyone to follow her whims regardless of what they are. Etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DWChancellor, post: 7815071, member: 96184"] I agree with Celebrim that published materials have poor discipline in terms of the "alienness" of extraplanar strongly aligned creatures. I lean a lot on the alienness of my supernatural NPCs and I'd like to think my players' reactions confirm that I do a descent job. That drow are evil is obviously true. I see them as being "chaotic" more than "lawful" because the basis of their society is the strongest wins (only the ends matter). This I see as a chaotic principle. Chaotic societies (etc.) aren't necessarily [I]unstructured[/I]. What structure the Drow have is imposed directly by Lolth and would mutate or disappear along with Lolth (as we see it does in all Drow exceptions from Jarlaxle's troop to non-Lolth worshipping Drow). I don't remember if it was here on Enworld or not, but I read a very good article arguing that tribal societies are chaotic in D&D alignment. The chieftain is selected for strength and while they may impose a structure and the appearance of "law" it is on the basis of their personal notions and strength (i.e. Lolth enforcing Drow societies' "norms" by punishing those who are [B]caught[/B] violating them, but rewarding those who [B]get away with things [/B]without being caught.) If Lolth disappeared, everything would be reordered by whoever stepped into the power vacuum. In a lawful society these norms would occur by habit or rote with members of the society obeying as a matter of course and not because of the direct threat posed by those stronger. The more I type the more this reminds me of descriptions of Demonic societies. So when I try and differentiate lawful societies and chaotic ones, it isn't based on whether there is an appearance of "structure" but whether that "structure" is based on direct threat (strength of the leaders) or general consensus (following norms). [B]* [I][/I][/B][I] **[/I] I think part of this is how we are defining "authority." For me, if the authority is a direct threat from someone stronger, that isn't necessarily lawful. I think there is a lot more room for interesting discussion in "would a Chaotic God tolerate or approve of lawful servants." For me, that would depend on exactly how they are chaotic. Lolth isn't chaotic because she likes a disordered mess like the Slaad; she is chaotic because she wants everyone to follow her whims regardless of what they are. Etc. [/QUOTE]
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