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General Tabletop Discussion
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Worlds of Design: Is Fighting Evil Passé?
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<blockquote data-quote="Gadget" data-source="post: 7972125" data-attributes="member: 23716"><p>Well, I really don't tend to get into the "D&D as morality play" type of games, but I roughly like the good vs evil vibe in a general way.</p><p></p><p>I would also argue that it really depends on what one's definition of "good" & "evil" are to begin with. I would hazard that society in general has moved somewhat on those definitions since the game's early days. Furthermore, I would also hazard that early Gygaxian D&D was much more amoral and grey than it later became. Though Gygax drew from material like tLotR (Balrogs, hobbits, dwarves, elves, <s>mithril</s> mithral, etc.), it was largely for monster/npc material and world building. Most of the references listed in the appendix of the 1e DMG are for more amoral, self-serving adventuring types: Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Lovecraft and such. Typically not knights in shinning armor but guys in a dog-eat-dog world that are just trying to get by and get ahead--even if it means stabbing someone in the back, but happen to run into really messed-up evil, ultra corrupt, demonic stuff along the way that may make them look "good" only by comparison. </p><p> The game was often about finding treasure and glory, more than fighting evil. Sure, you had the ultra-good paladin, but the rules seemed set up to hamper the player at every turn and force the player into difficult situations where the DM could--almost arbitrarily--take away their powers. Arguably not bad per se, but led to a lot of abuse by both players and DMs which in turn led directly to the "Lawful Stupid" sterotype. "Good" was often portrayed in those days as anywhere from bungling to rigid and draconian, with the "neutral" side often depicted as the sane or at least realistic option. Gygax's own "Gord the Rogue" books exemplified this quite strongly as well. Of course, not everyone (or even a majority, for all I know) played the game along those lines, but the trappings where there.</p><p></p><p>It wasn't until later on in 1e and 2e with things like Dragonlance and such that the epic, Good vs Evil campaign type really got a lot of play and attention. Not that it couldn't and wasn't done before, but this is when it became more of a focus in official material, iirc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gadget, post: 7972125, member: 23716"] Well, I really don't tend to get into the "D&D as morality play" type of games, but I roughly like the good vs evil vibe in a general way. I would also argue that it really depends on what one's definition of "good" & "evil" are to begin with. I would hazard that society in general has moved somewhat on those definitions since the game's early days. Furthermore, I would also hazard that early Gygaxian D&D was much more amoral and grey than it later became. Though Gygax drew from material like tLotR (Balrogs, hobbits, dwarves, elves, [S]mithril[/S] mithral, etc.), it was largely for monster/npc material and world building. Most of the references listed in the appendix of the 1e DMG are for more amoral, self-serving adventuring types: Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Lovecraft and such. Typically not knights in shinning armor but guys in a dog-eat-dog world that are just trying to get by and get ahead--even if it means stabbing someone in the back, but happen to run into really messed-up evil, ultra corrupt, demonic stuff along the way that may make them look "good" only by comparison. The game was often about finding treasure and glory, more than fighting evil. Sure, you had the ultra-good paladin, but the rules seemed set up to hamper the player at every turn and force the player into difficult situations where the DM could--almost arbitrarily--take away their powers. Arguably not bad per se, but led to a lot of abuse by both players and DMs which in turn led directly to the "Lawful Stupid" sterotype. "Good" was often portrayed in those days as anywhere from bungling to rigid and draconian, with the "neutral" side often depicted as the sane or at least realistic option. Gygax's own "Gord the Rogue" books exemplified this quite strongly as well. Of course, not everyone (or even a majority, for all I know) played the game along those lines, but the trappings where there. It wasn't until later on in 1e and 2e with things like Dragonlance and such that the epic, Good vs Evil campaign type really got a lot of play and attention. Not that it couldn't and wasn't done before, but this is when it became more of a focus in official material, iirc. [/QUOTE]
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