Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: Is Fighting Evil Passé?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7972596" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Ok, I think there's a point that people tend to miss here when we start talking about colonialism and moral relativism. It's not that we are humanizing monsters. That's not the problem. It's that, in the process of depicting the bad guys, it can (not necessarily will, but can) start to look an awful lot like the justifications that were used in the real world to do very bad things to very nice people.</p><p></p><p>Look, if you have a fantasy race that is ugly, strong, and angry, that's probably fine. I mean, I just defined Klingons. And, look at what Star Trek has done with Klingons - they aren't stupid, they are seen as pretty much equal to the Federation. They have an Empire. There are good, bad and otherwise Klingons. They have depth and, for a fiction race, at least give the appearance of being complete. </p><p></p><p>The problem is when you take your ugly, strong, angry race and add in Evil and Stupid. Not that it's unrealistic or unbelievable or anything like that. Sure, if Sauron is making a slave race of cannon fodder, orcs fit the bill. In fiction it makes perfect sense. No problems. However, regardless of the author's intent or how they are used in the fiction, it still evokes the same colonialist stereotypes that were used for centuries to justify some of the most horrific acts in history. </p><p></p><p>In other words, it doesn't MATTER what you think you are trying to say when you decide that your race of made up critters is unredeemable and evil. Sure, YOU might think that they are just good cannon fodder for the PC's and it's all good fun. But, no matter what, you are still playing off incredibly racist depictions of various peoples. That you don't mean that connection doesn't matter. That connection is still going to be made because it's unavoidable by anyone who thinks about it for more than three seconds. </p><p></p><p>The reason we don't make this connection with say, demons, is well, what do you mean by a demon? Are we talking a Mane or a Balor? Demons run all sorts of range of power, intelligence, and motivation. It's a lot harder to say that a Marilith has any real world connotations when, well, a six armed whirlwind of death has never really been used in the real world to depict anybody. The same is certainly not true of brutish, stupid and evil. </p><p></p><p>Let's be honest here. It's not 1982 anymore. There's no excuse for people not knowing the sources of the bigotry that led to things like orcs in the genre. Whether it's beast men, or whatnot, the source is still the same - colonialist bigotry. We can claim that that's not what we mean all we like, but, the connection is always there, whether it's recognized or not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7972596, member: 22779"] Ok, I think there's a point that people tend to miss here when we start talking about colonialism and moral relativism. It's not that we are humanizing monsters. That's not the problem. It's that, in the process of depicting the bad guys, it can (not necessarily will, but can) start to look an awful lot like the justifications that were used in the real world to do very bad things to very nice people. Look, if you have a fantasy race that is ugly, strong, and angry, that's probably fine. I mean, I just defined Klingons. And, look at what Star Trek has done with Klingons - they aren't stupid, they are seen as pretty much equal to the Federation. They have an Empire. There are good, bad and otherwise Klingons. They have depth and, for a fiction race, at least give the appearance of being complete. The problem is when you take your ugly, strong, angry race and add in Evil and Stupid. Not that it's unrealistic or unbelievable or anything like that. Sure, if Sauron is making a slave race of cannon fodder, orcs fit the bill. In fiction it makes perfect sense. No problems. However, regardless of the author's intent or how they are used in the fiction, it still evokes the same colonialist stereotypes that were used for centuries to justify some of the most horrific acts in history. In other words, it doesn't MATTER what you think you are trying to say when you decide that your race of made up critters is unredeemable and evil. Sure, YOU might think that they are just good cannon fodder for the PC's and it's all good fun. But, no matter what, you are still playing off incredibly racist depictions of various peoples. That you don't mean that connection doesn't matter. That connection is still going to be made because it's unavoidable by anyone who thinks about it for more than three seconds. The reason we don't make this connection with say, demons, is well, what do you mean by a demon? Are we talking a Mane or a Balor? Demons run all sorts of range of power, intelligence, and motivation. It's a lot harder to say that a Marilith has any real world connotations when, well, a six armed whirlwind of death has never really been used in the real world to depict anybody. The same is certainly not true of brutish, stupid and evil. Let's be honest here. It's not 1982 anymore. There's no excuse for people not knowing the sources of the bigotry that led to things like orcs in the genre. Whether it's beast men, or whatnot, the source is still the same - colonialist bigotry. We can claim that that's not what we mean all we like, but, the connection is always there, whether it's recognized or not. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Worlds of Design: Is Fighting Evil Passé?
Top