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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7980085" data-attributes="member: 42582">This stuff about orcs having traditions, and obeying the laws of their CE kingdoms, etc in my view makes no sense within the 9-point alignment framework.A kingdom of orcs with rules that boss everyone around and makes them miserable is a poster child for LE (which is what orcs used to be) and is an embarssament to LG, because it refutes their view that order produces wellbeing.If it is posited that (i) there is such a thing as a &quot;CE kingdom&quot; or &quot;CE society&quot; and orcs are flourishing in it, then what work is the notion of Law vs Chaos doing? All we've got is societies I like and societies I don't. Which is fine enough, but doesn't seem to have the alignment system doing any work.To make the point pithier: once I'm asked to imagine a &quot;CE kingdom&quot; or a &quot;CE society&quot; all I'm seeing in contrast to a &quot;LE kingdome&quot; or &quot;LE society&quot; is that when the guards yell at you it's a bit more unrestrained.Whereas to me, at least traditionally, orcs and gnolls and the like don't have societies in any but the thinnest sense. That's why they have to raid to get food, gear etc - they're not capable of producing their own because they don't have a genuinely functioning social system.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7980085, member: 42582"] This stuff about orcs having traditions, and obeying the laws of their CE kingdoms, etc in my view makes no sense [I]within the 9-point alignment framework[/I]. A kingdom of orcs with rules that boss everyone around and makes them miserable is a poster child for LE (which is what orcs used to be) and is an embarssament to LG, because it refutes their view that order produces wellbeing. If it is posited that (i) there is such a thing as a "CE kingdom" or "CE society" and orcs are flourishing in it, then what work is the notion of Law vs Chaos doing? All we've got is [I]societies I like [/I]and [I]societies I don't[/I]. Which is fine enough, but doesn't seem to have the alignment system doing any work. To make the point pithier: once I'm asked to imagine a "CE kingdom" or a "CE society" all I'm seeing in contrast to a "LE kingdome" or "LE society" is that when the guards yell at you it's a bit more unrestrained. Whereas to me, at least traditionally, orcs and gnolls and the like don't have societies in any but the thinnest sense. That's why they have to raid to get food, gear etc - they're not capable of producing their own because they don't have a genuinely functioning social system. [/QUOTE]

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