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Worlds of Design: RPG Gods - Benign or Malign?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8729486" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I wouldn't expect someone who literally is just a farmer, who does not see past the border of his own farm, to care about <em>any</em> of this stuff. Like I would expect him to straight-up say, "I couldn't care less whether we call them 'divinities' or 'spirits' or 'boojams.'" My criticism is <em>Doylist</em>, not <em>Watsonian</em>, because we're talking about <em>creating</em> these systems, describing what's going on in them.</p><p></p><p>And, in English, when describing something as a divinity or divine, you're going to get people thinking at least <em>moderately</em> big. You can, of course, give the local definition of divinity, or (my preference) use a neologism or a loanword. The latter means using, or finding, a term for that space of being, allowing "divinity" to remain useful as it is. The former means...doing as I described, diluting "divinity" and then needing to invent or reuse some <em>new</em> term to describe what "divinity" previously did, such as upthread where it was referred to as "[the] ultimate(s)."</p><p></p><p></p><p>For the same reason I don't feel awe or reverence for Alexa, or my food processor, or a good bag of fertilizer, or a handful of other things. I would certainly be <em>thankful</em>, and if all it takes to secure that benefit is the occasional ritual then sure, whatever, no skin off my back. But I'm not going to have "a feeling of deep respect tinged with awe" about the Tony the Turnip making my turnips plump and flavorful. Being thankful that a supernatural being did something good for you, and consequently being neighborly to that supernatural being, is a far cry from reverence, awe, or worship.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Would I <em>say</em> that? No. Because it would be disrespectful. Being respectful to others is completely unrelated to whether one feels awe toward them. I strive to be respectful to others all the time (even though I am far from perfect at doing so.) I have never striven to be <em>in awe</em> of others. If Tony the Turnip said, "Hey, friend, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours--just put out some rice for me on the solstices, and put in a good word for me with the bigwigs, eh? Whaddaya say?" then sure, I can do that, tit for tat and all, that's just being polite. If Tony says, "Alright now listen up, it'd be TERRIBLE if something bad were to happen to that pretty turnip patch youse gots, but if youse gets to prayin' to me mornin' and night, well, I can make sure that don't happen," then hell no, I'll try to exorcise the jerk. Neither case involves "a feeling of deep respect tinged with awe."</p><p></p><p></p><p>And I don't see it that way. That's a spirit, a <em>genius loci</em> or possibly an <em>agathodaemon</em>, or a kami/yōkai, etc. Also, "religious (=binding) rituals" is <em>at the very least</em> not an accurate description of ancient religions as I have understood them (indeed, it is much closer to the ancients' understanding of <em>witchcraft</em>, e.g. as shown in the completely secular trial for witchcraft that Apuleius went through. The lines between what we would call "religion," "magic," and "witchcraft" were drawn very differently back then, but "religious ritual" <em>certainly did not</em> mean something "binding" on the gods or anyone else--often they were undertaken merely in the <em>hope</em> they might achieve something.)</p><p></p><p>You propitiate all sorts of people or entities without treating them with awe and reverence. I propitiate my parents with promises of aid and offerings of food. I have propitiated employers, coworkers, and clients as a daily part of work. I have propitiated doctors and dentists and optometrists. I have propitiated businesses and restaurants. Propitiation is nothing more than "do things to get someone or something to treat you favorably." There is no need for reverence or awe or worship as part of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And I've always hated that take on this sort of thing. It's part of why I so dearly loved the concept of Investiture from 4e. It turns the whole problem on its head and makes religion in D&D <em>actually about devotion and beliefs</em>, and not about <em>transactions</em>. Investiture being essentially permanent means that the gods must be <em>really really sure</em> that they're confident in the fidelity and piety of their servants. Likewise, members of the church (who are the ones actually conducting the Investiture ceremony) have a distinct <em>need</em> for "internal police," who can deal with the unavoidable eventuality of heresy or betrayal--and that's where Avengers slotted in (as opposed to being wanna-be Batman Paladins.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8729486, member: 6790260"] I wouldn't expect someone who literally is just a farmer, who does not see past the border of his own farm, to care about [I]any[/I] of this stuff. Like I would expect him to straight-up say, "I couldn't care less whether we call them 'divinities' or 'spirits' or 'boojams.'" My criticism is [I]Doylist[/I], not [I]Watsonian[/I], because we're talking about [I]creating[/I] these systems, describing what's going on in them. And, in English, when describing something as a divinity or divine, you're going to get people thinking at least [I]moderately[/I] big. You can, of course, give the local definition of divinity, or (my preference) use a neologism or a loanword. The latter means using, or finding, a term for that space of being, allowing "divinity" to remain useful as it is. The former means...doing as I described, diluting "divinity" and then needing to invent or reuse some [I]new[/I] term to describe what "divinity" previously did, such as upthread where it was referred to as "[the] ultimate(s)." For the same reason I don't feel awe or reverence for Alexa, or my food processor, or a good bag of fertilizer, or a handful of other things. I would certainly be [I]thankful[/I], and if all it takes to secure that benefit is the occasional ritual then sure, whatever, no skin off my back. But I'm not going to have "a feeling of deep respect tinged with awe" about the Tony the Turnip making my turnips plump and flavorful. Being thankful that a supernatural being did something good for you, and consequently being neighborly to that supernatural being, is a far cry from reverence, awe, or worship. Would I [I]say[/I] that? No. Because it would be disrespectful. Being respectful to others is completely unrelated to whether one feels awe toward them. I strive to be respectful to others all the time (even though I am far from perfect at doing so.) I have never striven to be [I]in awe[/I] of others. If Tony the Turnip said, "Hey, friend, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours--just put out some rice for me on the solstices, and put in a good word for me with the bigwigs, eh? Whaddaya say?" then sure, I can do that, tit for tat and all, that's just being polite. If Tony says, "Alright now listen up, it'd be TERRIBLE if something bad were to happen to that pretty turnip patch youse gots, but if youse gets to prayin' to me mornin' and night, well, I can make sure that don't happen," then hell no, I'll try to exorcise the jerk. Neither case involves "a feeling of deep respect tinged with awe." And I don't see it that way. That's a spirit, a [I]genius loci[/I] or possibly an [I]agathodaemon[/I], or a kami/yōkai, etc. Also, "religious (=binding) rituals" is [I]at the very least[/I] not an accurate description of ancient religions as I have understood them (indeed, it is much closer to the ancients' understanding of [I]witchcraft[/I], e.g. as shown in the completely secular trial for witchcraft that Apuleius went through. The lines between what we would call "religion," "magic," and "witchcraft" were drawn very differently back then, but "religious ritual" [I]certainly did not[/I] mean something "binding" on the gods or anyone else--often they were undertaken merely in the [I]hope[/I] they might achieve something.) You propitiate all sorts of people or entities without treating them with awe and reverence. I propitiate my parents with promises of aid and offerings of food. I have propitiated employers, coworkers, and clients as a daily part of work. I have propitiated doctors and dentists and optometrists. I have propitiated businesses and restaurants. Propitiation is nothing more than "do things to get someone or something to treat you favorably." There is no need for reverence or awe or worship as part of it. And I've always hated that take on this sort of thing. It's part of why I so dearly loved the concept of Investiture from 4e. It turns the whole problem on its head and makes religion in D&D [I]actually about devotion and beliefs[/I], and not about [I]transactions[/I]. Investiture being essentially permanent means that the gods must be [I]really really sure[/I] that they're confident in the fidelity and piety of their servants. Likewise, members of the church (who are the ones actually conducting the Investiture ceremony) have a distinct [I]need[/I] for "internal police," who can deal with the unavoidable eventuality of heresy or betrayal--and that's where Avengers slotted in (as opposed to being wanna-be Batman Paladins.) [/QUOTE]
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