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<blockquote data-quote="schneeland" data-source="post: 8468175" data-attributes="member: 6900337">Similar to [USER=12731]@CapnZapp[/USER], I'm not sure if &quot;hard&quot; and &quot;soft&quot; is really helping a lot when thinking about magic systems for TTRPGs, at least not as the single axis of design. Based on games I played or read, I would intuitively think about the following dimensions:<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fixed effect vs. flexible framework: where in D&amp;D the spell effect is basically fixed (with some creative uses allowed depending on the GM), other games like Ars Magica offer flexible frameworks to create magical effects</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Codified rule/effect vs. ad hoc negotiation: while larger, traditional games often have most of the effect fixed in the rules (even if that includes some randomness), other games allow provide just rough guidelines on what magic can achieve and leave the rest to agreement at the table (e.g. in Barbarians of Lemuria spells are judged by how easy the effect would be to achieve without magic)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Risk&amp;reward vs. fixed resource cost: e.g. in Shadowrun you suffer an amount of damage (drain) based on the force level of your spell, so you might take out more enemies with a more powerful spell, but also yourself; with spell slot or spell point systems you basically always get your spell out (though an opponent might resist the effect) at a fixed cost. In some systems, the risk/cost might also come in the form of corruptive effects (e.g. Symbaroum) or spell fumbles (e.g. DCC, Forbidden Lands)</li>
</ol>From personal experience I can say that a game where we player's basically knew nothing about how magic worked, did not go well. Basically it left us very directionless and we stopped the campaign after the first arc.I do agree, though, that magic systems with fixed &amp; codified effects coming at fixed resource costs like the one featured in D&amp;D, definitely do not feel very magical and really more like a big set of (more or less) reliable tools. For that reason, I personally prefer magic in the games mentioned above.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="schneeland, post: 8468175, member: 6900337"] Similar to [USER=12731]@CapnZapp[/USER], I'm not sure if "hard" and "soft" is really helping a lot when thinking about magic systems for TTRPGs, at least not as the single axis of design. Based on games I played or read, I would intuitively think about the following dimensions: [LIST=1] [*][B]Fixed effect vs. flexible framework[/B]: where in D&D the spell effect is basically fixed (with some creative uses allowed depending on the GM), other games like Ars Magica offer flexible frameworks to create magical effects [*][B]Codified rule/effect vs. ad hoc negotiation[/B]: while larger, traditional games often have most of the effect fixed in the rules (even if that includes some randomness), other games allow provide just rough guidelines on what magic can achieve and leave the rest to agreement at the table (e.g. in Barbarians of Lemuria spells are judged by how easy the effect would be to achieve without magic) [*][B]Risk&reward vs. fixed resource cost[/B]: e.g. in Shadowrun you suffer an amount of damage (drain) based on the force level of your spell, so you might take out more enemies with a more powerful spell, but also yourself; with spell slot or spell point systems you basically always get your spell out (though an opponent might resist the effect) at a fixed cost. In some systems, the risk/cost might also come in the form of corruptive effects (e.g. Symbaroum) or spell fumbles (e.g. DCC, Forbidden Lands) [/LIST] From personal experience I can say that a game where we player's basically knew nothing about how magic worked, did not go well. Basically it left us very directionless and we stopped the campaign after the first arc. I do agree, though, that magic systems with fixed & codified effects coming at fixed resource costs like the one featured in D&D, definitely do not feel very magical and really more like a big set of (more or less) reliable tools. For that reason, I personally prefer magic in the games mentioned above. [/QUOTE]

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