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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8387291" data-attributes="member: 5889">My few thoughts on the issues of high level (and I will use 15-20 as my mark for high level in this context".The PlotI would say that the vast majority of plots that DMs use for lower level PCs are no longer suitable for high level. So for most "organically grown" parties, there needs to be a tonal shift at some point. Aka they beat their original BBEG, they saved the world, etc etc... they finished the original plot, and have decided to go "high level" with a new plot.Now that doesn't mean the original plot can't serve the high level plot. Perhaps the BBEG they fought to save the world actually worked for a person trying to control the entire multiverse.... no problem there. Or maybe the original BBEG was able to ascend to godhood and now is a universal threat. But the idea is.... the old plot baggage is left behind, and the scale of the game has clearly changed. High level people shouldn't be dealing with murder plots of kings, or villains threatening continents. Its world scale....probably more multiverse scale at that point....anything less just doesn't jive with the power those players have at their disposal.I also think DMs need to think seriously if they want a second "high level plot" in their game. I think high level works best when you get that one big new world/multiversal danger, the PCs defeat it.... and the game ends. Introducing a second world/multiversal threat, and then a 3rd, etc etc starts to lose some of the epicness of the game at that point. Though it can be done, DMs should seriously ask if they really want it to be done.Big Things under Time PressureAll of my experience DMing high levels has taught me one thing above all others.... the best way to challenge high level players is time. Give the party a week, and they will find ways to subvert and trash anything you can throw at them. Give them only a few days, or heck even a single day (no long rests) and suddenly things get interesting again.This is also a fun way to show off epicness and still use old plotlines....use a more midtier plot....but require the party to do it in a day. Example, maybe the party saved their own world from a BBEG....after months of work and planning. Have them go to a new world, with a new world ending badguy....and say "you have 1 day". Similar to throwing a softball encounter to make the party feel really strong, throwing out an old "campaign length plot" as "just all in a days work" can really highlight how powerful the party is nice.Of course use that sparingly, I mean how many worlds need saving every day, but its a fun change of pace.Temporary Nerfs are FineA lot of high level guides say things like "don't get in the habit of nerfing things just because it thwarts your plot". I think that's good advice but its incomplete. I think nerfing things is completely fine, as long as your mixing it up.For example, teleports, one of the things high level DMs that aren't as experienced love to nerf. There is no issue with having an adventure where the party goes to a realm where teleports don't work..... just don't remove teleports ALL the time. The next time they face a bad guy with a lair repulsion effect against all metal (aka no metal armor and weapons). Then the next time they go to a fire plane where everything is highly resistant or immune to fire. The next place has a weird effect where all divinations only show you the past instead of the future (which can be fun roleplaying).In each case I am nerfing some mechanic to shake up the adventure and have the party get creative, the key is just not to nerf the same stuff all the time.Bring in the RefereesOne issue that some DMs can have when they first get to high level is this notion that the players just can't be stopped. They can go where they want, alter reality, divine any secret you could come up with. This can give DMs a feeling of powerlessness if they don't learn how to control it.One idea that can make for great roleplaying, is to call in the universal referees. The players are no longer just capable of shifting the sand around, they can actually break the sandbox....and some entities are not ok with that.Perhaps a player decides "ok, I am going to finally figure out the world secret that we have heard about for like 12 levels!".... and then an agent of Vecna (or hell Vecna himself) arrives to go "yeah...no, we are not ok with that". Maybe the agent threatens, maybe they bribe the player with a grand thing (but with some permanent geas that prevents them from looking in on the secret).This is the notion of "succeed sideways". The player didn't technically get what they were looking for, but they did get a cool encounter and maybe some other fun knowledge or treasure.Like most things its all about degrees. As a once in a while reminder to the party that they are not all powerful, its fine. But if your doing it everytime a 9th level spell is cast then your going to have a problem.One Note on InitiativeOne thing I do agree with in the original guide is that initiative at high levels can be everything. It doesn't matter how awesome your BBEG is, if he goes last in the initiative....he may get wrecked before it even gets to go.One houserule I have tried a few times is this: "Legendary Monsters can choose to take 10 on the initiative roll"This means I'm giving up on the idea the monster goes first, but I'm ensuring the party at least goes generally in the middle, giving the party some chance to hit them first but ensuring the monster is never dead (and I do mean dead) last. This can add a bit of consistency especially when the party is going for the really big fight, and you truly don't want the fight to be ruined by one single bad initiative roll.</blockquote>

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