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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 8183023" data-attributes="member: 6779310">You're wrong on both sides here; there are many boardgames that are not playable out of the box, and there are RPGs with constrained prescribed start points. Specifically, again, the beginner boxes are subset rulesets with explicit &quot;start here&quot; and with all the characters prewritten for that startpoint.&nbsp; Plus quite a few indie games - the one most memorable is Grey Ranks - you're a resistance member in Krackow in a specific month during WW II. There are games without character gen, too - Marvel Heroic technically only has a process for rating existing characters, but that's close enough for many... Cosmic Patrol has a similar level of &quot;character gen&quot; - the intended mode for both is pregens for everyone, with the rating new characters being a &quot;just to appease.&quot; The Dune starter box has neither character gen nor full pregens - buy it to find the details, but it's a variation on creation-during-play. And Character Creation in Feng Shui 2 is &quot;Pick a template, transcribe/copy/print it out, put a name on it.&quot; Dallas: The RPG has only pregens as well, and has a defined starting scenario. (It's a fairly narrativist approach, even; shocking for the early 1980's.)There are many wargames, both board and minis, that require building a scenario and have no explicit single startpoint; the best known board versions are Squad Leader and SFB, with Wooden Ships and Iron Men, and Harpoon being the second tier of being known, and for minis games, Warhammer and 40K are &quot;Pick a point size and then pick forces...&quot; Striker II and Soldier's Companion are GDW's equivalent efforts. Many minis wargames and many hex-based tactical sims also do the &quot;Here's how to build a scenario&quot; and &quot;here's how to select forces for faction X&quot;....And that's ignoring the &quot;Intentionally straddling the divide&quot; games like Car Wars, Battlestations! (Gorilla Games), Inquisitor, and Necromunda.You've argued that RPGs are different because work has to be done, and then discounted the &quot;grab-n-go&quot; flavor of RPG's because the work has been done by someone, completely ignoring that most minis wargames work the same way, and many hex-and-counter tac sims work the same way. If SFB counts as ready to play out of the box, then so does Star Trek Adventures Beginner Box or the Edge of the Empire Beginner Box. If the two starters do not count as ready to play, then neither does SFB, Starfire 1E/2E/3E, nor Warhammer 40K (esp. 1st ed).... Starfire 4e's prescribed start point involves system generation, then buying a starting fleet.... averages over an hour in 2E/3E campaign mechanics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 8183023, member: 6779310"] You're wrong on both sides here; there are many boardgames that are not playable out of the box, and there are RPGs with constrained prescribed start points. Specifically, again, the beginner boxes are subset rulesets with explicit "start here" and with all the characters prewritten for that startpoint. Plus quite a few indie games - the one most memorable is Grey Ranks - you're a resistance member in Krackow in a specific month during WW II. There are games without character gen, too - Marvel Heroic technically only has a process for rating existing characters, but that's close enough for many... Cosmic Patrol has a similar level of "character gen" - the intended mode for both is pregens for everyone, with the rating new characters being a "just to appease." The Dune starter box has neither character gen nor full pregens - buy it to find the details, but it's a variation on creation-during-play. And Character Creation in Feng Shui 2 is "Pick a template, transcribe/copy/print it out, put a name on it." Dallas: The RPG has only pregens as well, and has a defined starting scenario. (It's a fairly narrativist approach, even; shocking for the early 1980's.) There are many wargames, both board and minis, that require building a scenario and have no explicit single startpoint; the best known board versions are Squad Leader and SFB, with Wooden Ships and Iron Men, and Harpoon being the second tier of being known, and for minis games, Warhammer and 40K are "Pick a point size and then pick forces..." Striker II and Soldier's Companion are GDW's equivalent efforts. Many minis wargames and many hex-based tactical sims also do the "Here's how to build a scenario" and "here's how to select forces for faction X".... And that's ignoring the "Intentionally straddling the divide" games like Car Wars, Battlestations! (Gorilla Games), Inquisitor, and Necromunda. [B]You've argued that RPGs are different because work has to be done, and then discounted the "grab-n-go" flavor of RPG's because the work has been done by someone, completely ignoring that most minis wargames work the same way, and many hex-and-counter tac sims work the same way. [/B]If SFB counts as ready to play out of the box, then so does Star Trek Adventures Beginner Box or the Edge of the Empire Beginner Box. If the two starters do not count as ready to play, then neither does SFB, Starfire 1E/2E/3E, nor Warhammer 40K (esp. 1st ed).... Starfire 4e's prescribed start point involves system generation, then buying a starting fleet.... averages over an hour in 2E/3E campaign mechanics. [/QUOTE]

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