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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8189473" data-attributes="member: 22779">Well, 3e is immune to criticism, because, well, if you don't hold 3e to be the epitome of game design, beyond any criticism, then you must hate 3e (and by association, Pathfinder) and must be a 4e holdover edition warrior.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm&nbsp; &nbsp; :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />&nbsp; Unfortunate, but, apparently it's still impossible to discuss shortcomings in 3e design.&nbsp; 5e apparently is less immune to this.&nbsp; You can criticise 5e without being labeled as a hater.&nbsp; Now, rolling this back to the original question, I wonder if looking at the purpose of the mechanics in games might not lead to differentiating RPG's from other games.&nbsp; I'm thinking out loud here, so, bear with me if I'm not making much sense.In a board game, all the mechanics are there to lead the players to the ultimate conclusion of the game - determining the final state of the game.&nbsp; You follow the game mechanics, from turn to turn, until the game ends.&nbsp; All mechanics in the game are there to tell the players what to do next until that end state is reached.&nbsp; But, in an RPG, that isn't true.&nbsp; You don't (generally) have an end state in an RPG.&nbsp; Certainly not an end state defined by the mechanics.&nbsp; The mechanics are only engaged with in certain circumstances and are generally only there to determine success/failure conditions in order to explore the fictional positioning of the players' characters.&nbsp; IOW, you can play an RPG for significant amounts of time without using any mechanics at all.&nbsp; We've all had sessions where virtually no dice were rolled.&nbsp; Yet, when asked, we'd still say we were playing X RPG.&nbsp; If no one deals any cards, can you claim to be playing poker?&nbsp; If no dice are rolled, can you progress in (almost all) board games?&nbsp; Yet, I can play an RPG without engaging mechanics so, there must be a fundamental difference in the purpose of mechanics between board games and RPG's.&nbsp; The same applies to video games, only that the mechanics in a video game are hidden (largely) from the player.&nbsp; Does this make sense?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8189473, member: 22779"] Well, 3e is immune to criticism, because, well, if you don't hold 3e to be the epitome of game design, beyond any criticism, then you must hate 3e (and by association, Pathfinder) and must be a 4e holdover edition warrior. :erm: Unfortunate, but, apparently it's still impossible to discuss shortcomings in 3e design. 5e apparently is less immune to this. You can criticise 5e without being labeled as a hater. Now, rolling this back to the original question, I wonder if looking at the purpose of the mechanics in games might not lead to differentiating RPG's from other games. I'm thinking out loud here, so, bear with me if I'm not making much sense. In a board game, all the mechanics are there to lead the players to the ultimate conclusion of the game - determining the final state of the game. You follow the game mechanics, from turn to turn, until the game ends. All mechanics in the game are there to tell the players what to do next until that end state is reached. But, in an RPG, that isn't true. You don't (generally) have an end state in an RPG. Certainly not an end state defined by the mechanics. The mechanics are only engaged with in certain circumstances and are generally only there to determine success/failure conditions in order to explore the fictional positioning of the players' characters. IOW, you can play an RPG for significant amounts of time without using any mechanics at all. We've all had sessions where virtually no dice were rolled. Yet, when asked, we'd still say we were playing X RPG. If no one deals any cards, can you claim to be playing poker? If no dice are rolled, can you progress in (almost all) board games? Yet, I can play an RPG without engaging mechanics so, there must be a fundamental difference in the purpose of mechanics between board games and RPG's. The same applies to video games, only that the mechanics in a video game are hidden (largely) from the player. Does this make sense? [/QUOTE]

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