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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8553279" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I don't see how getting a sorcerous origin at 1st level is a problem for this comparison.&nbsp; That is part of the class chasissis and it comes at level 1.&nbsp; Therefore it is totally appropriate to include sorcerous origin options available at level 1 if you are comparing level 1 characters, just like it would be appropriate to compare the spells or skill proficiencies available to either class at level 1 when comparing them.There are also some sorcerer advantages you did not consider:&nbsp; A sorcerer gets 4 cantrips vs 2 for a wizard.&nbsp; At 1st level you can only cast 2 leveled spells a day (3 with AR and a SR), so you will be casting cantrips far more often than spells.&nbsp; Because of this, the extra cantrips the sorcerer gets are pretty significant at 1st level, probably more significant in play than the 2 extra spells prepared (max) since you can only use 2 of your prepared spells.&nbsp; The save proficiencies are much better than the wizards at level 1 (for a caster) and having Charisma as a casting stat is marginally better than having intelligence due to the synergy with the roleplay aspects of the game.Are these features combined as good as having 6 known spells, 4 prepared, an extra slot with a short rest, better spells to choose from and ritual casting?I would say at 1st level it is probably better for some subclasses, worse for others .... just like one can be better than the other based on which spells you select.&nbsp; If you take the best Sorcerer you can build compared to the best Wizard at 1st level, ignoring racial synergies - If you did this I would argue the best sorcerer is a better overall character at level 1.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8553279, member: 7030563"] I don't see how getting a sorcerous origin at 1st level is a problem for this comparison. That is part of the class chasissis and it comes at level 1. Therefore it is totally appropriate to include sorcerous origin options available at level 1 if you are comparing level 1 characters, just like it would be appropriate to compare the spells or skill proficiencies available to either class at level 1 when comparing them. There are also some sorcerer advantages you did not consider: A sorcerer gets 4 cantrips vs 2 for a wizard. At 1st level you can only cast 2 leveled spells a day (3 with AR and a SR), so you will be casting cantrips far more often than spells. Because of this, the extra cantrips the sorcerer gets are pretty significant at 1st level, probably more significant in play than the 2 extra spells prepared (max) since you can only use 2 of your prepared spells. The save proficiencies are much better than the wizards at level 1 (for a caster) and having Charisma as a casting stat is marginally better than having intelligence due to the synergy with the roleplay aspects of the game. Are these features combined as good as having 6 known spells, 4 prepared, an extra slot with a short rest, better spells to choose from and ritual casting? I would say at 1st level it is probably better for some subclasses, worse for others .... just like one can be better than the other based on which spells you select. If you take the best Sorcerer you can build compared to the best Wizard at 1st level, ignoring racial synergies - If you did this I would argue the best sorcerer is a better overall character at level 1. [/QUOTE]

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