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Message: <blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 3028606" data-attributes="member: 22424">When you say appropriate CR, do you mean CR = average party level, +1, +2, or what?Once the various expansion rules are factored in, the CRs that a party can handle need to be bumped up by 1 or 2 to maintain the same challenge. Especially if the party are skilled at retreating and resting, and so come to each encounter 'fresh'.In any event, 5 rounds to kill a CR-appropriate creature is about right, especially since the party are evidently using many of their resources (heals, spells, etc).Still, about the rest of your post...Sounds about right. And it sounds like the party used clever tactics, which made the fight easier than it otherwise might have been. So, good on them. Honestly, I don't see much problem, from a game mechanic point of view. Incidentally, when the wizard used those Orb spells, you did include the -4 penalty on the attack roll for firing into melee, didn't you?IIRC, the Orb of X spells DO require a ranged touch attack. In any event, they are widely regarded as overpowered (and in the 'wrong' school to boot).And, yes, the party roles in D&D are almost exactly the same as the roles in MMORPGs, for the simple reason that those MMORPGs are rooted in the history of D&D, and D&D 3e was in some regards influenced by games like Diablo. Basically, they influence one another strongly, so it's no surprise they feel similar.Mechanically, I don't see anything much wrong with the fight. A battle against a CR = party level opponent should use up 20% of available resources. I don't know how close the party came to that, but it sounds like they did use a lot of spells and healing, so that would be fine. The problem comes if they encounter every fight 'fresh' because they get to retreat and rest each time.Doesn't prevent the fight from being boring, though.I agree somewhat. I have a suspicion Wizards might be thinking of trying to move to a DM-less version of the game. Which would be interesting, but not something I would want to play. The closer they can get the mechanics to being deterministic, the easier that is (no need to determine opponent actions if PC abilities can dictate them, etc).No, the party did well. The Knight's Challenge can be instant death for a lone foe, or it can just fail.Keep the challenges many and varied. Throw creatures with energy resistance, or high Will saves, or in groups, or use traps, or puzzles, or whatever. And either don't let the party rest and retreat (to come at each encounter 'fresh'), or assume they will always be 'fresh' and increase the challenge accordingly.Sounds like you just had a bad experience. I've encountered the same. However, if it's only one encounter out of a full campaign (as I found) it's not something to worry about. Decide what lessons need learned from it, and then forget about it.</blockquote>

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