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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9333476" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Edit: Saw the mod note after I posted this. Keeping it up, because I am legitimately trying to figure out if I missed something.Sure, why not. I have time today.Your first post was here[SPOILER="First post"][/SPOILER]Arguments include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I hate it. - Not an argument.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It was too much - No explanation for why it was too much</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What about Gnomes - I gave an explanation, but again, this is essentially asking why gnomes don't have weapon and armor proficiencies. The rule only covered those</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mountain Dwarves "clearly" were designed so that two features were one - Not really clear to me that they were designed that way. I think the +2 strength was just legacy. Also, even if that was the original design, that doesn't mean it was good.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The system needed to be a bit more elaborated - Agreed with this.</li> </ul>Not looking great for arguments here. Gnomes don't have the extra proficiencies, so the rule didn't apply to the, And other than trying to make a case for Mountain Dwarves being well-designed (which does nothing for the Gith, Hobgoblins or Elves) your arguments are... not arguments, just statements of not liking it.[SPOILER="Second Post"][/SPOILER]Arguments include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Let us not pretend that swapping proficiencies is a good idea - No explanation for why it is bad.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Focused on Mountain Dwarves, which again, even if I agreed with, does not make the feature bad for Elves, Gith, and Hobgoblins</li> </ul>[SPOILER="Third Post"][/SPOILER]Arguments include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swapping Skill and Tool Proficiencies is different from swapping Weapon and Armor Proficiencies - No explanation for why they are different, and why being different<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ability to swap redundant skills and tools is not vital - No explanation for why you think that.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The idea was terrible - No explanation for why it was bad</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Your experience isn't universal - Yeah, sure, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek anyways. Trying to point out that I'd seen a lot of people drawn to other features for fighters, other than an additional +1 on con or strength. Still not an argument for why swapping the weapon and armor profs are bad.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You are blind - Not an argument.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dwarves aren't humans - Okay, yes. Still not an argument for why swapping the armor proficiency is bad. THe closest I can understand to that is, you think that a few extra tool proficiencies are so powerful, that it makes Mountain Dwarves an absolutely Overpowered choice for fighter, paladin, cleric (anyone with armor profs). But, other than calling it "munchkin" you've never elaborated on that.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You've never seen anyone swapping things - Not an argument, especially since you called me out on personal anecdotes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course 2024 is better, because the designers noticed people were too stupid to see their earlier design - Not an argument for why swapping profs is bad, and assumes that the original design was good</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dwarf has abilities that balance out the redundancy (+1 strength) and Goblins don't for their redundancy - Well, we are talking different redundancies here. Also, if Goblins don't have anything extra... then neither do Gith, Elves, or Hobgoblins to balance out THEIR redundancies, that the swapping rule helps with.</li> </ul>[SPOILER="Last post"][/SPOILER]"You are ignoring all my arguments"So... the only thing you were arguing is mountain Dwarf is well-designed, powerful, and only munchkins would even consider swapping weapon and armor profs they can't use for tool profs they can. So, let's set that aside.What about the Gith from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes?What about the Hobgoblin?What about all the Elves?These are the other races (and the ONLY other races) that this swapping rule applies to. And none of them have two +2's. So, even if we accept that Mountain Dwarves never needed this rule because they get +2 strength and +2 Con... this doesn't apply to any other races that this rule helps. So 75% of all instances of the rule... are fine?Because, other than declaring the rule bad... you only ever argued about the Mountain Dwarf. Nothing else.</blockquote>

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