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<blockquote data-quote="Riastlin" data-source="post: 5367720" data-attributes="member: 94022">I guess I just always looked at the DMG &quot;adventure&quot; as an intro to the combat system rather than as an adventure per se.&nbsp; I think the other thing to consider, particularly for an &quot;intro adventure&quot; in a core book is that while not every group is heavy into roleplay and story, pretty much every group does enjoy combat.&nbsp; Making the included adventure combat heavy then becomes a bit of a safe choice -- at least for new players.Experienced groups are likely to ignore the included adventure (except maybe to use it as a quick primer).&nbsp;The bigger problem for me though comes with the standalone adventures like KotS.&nbsp; KotS is pretty much a terrible adventure as implemented (though I think it could be made into a good adventure with some work).&nbsp; The problem with this is approach is that the standalone adventures are, in my opinion, a lot more likely to be used by even experienced groups.&nbsp; Every DM occasionally runs into a time crunch for instance.&nbsp; Where I think WotC often fails is that they seem to spend a lot time trying to come up with a story for the dungeon, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but then don't provide a story for the characters in the adventure.&nbsp; The problem here is that while the dungeon's story might be interesting, its often going to be the case that the PCs will not discover that story.&nbsp;Take Sir Keegan for instance.&nbsp; IIRC (don't have the adventure here at work <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown&nbsp; &nbsp; :("&nbsp; data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> ), there's a pretty decent chance that the PCs will never discover his true story -- even if they engage him in the SC if the DM runs the adventure entirely as written.&nbsp; To truly have a good chance of delivering that story, the DM needs to find a way to provide flashbacks (the DM who ran it for me had ghosts sprinkled throughout the Keep reliving their last moments).&nbsp; The actual encounter as written though deals more with getting the PCs to convince Keegan that they are good than with Keegan's story itself.&nbsp;All of this is all well and good for an experienced DM who has the time to modify the adventure to suit his needs, but for new DM's, or DM's who are pressed for time, the adventure ends up falling flat.&nbsp; Its a shame really, because I'm sure that there are plenty of people at WotC who run amazing adventures and campaigns, they just haven't seemed to be able to actually write them for publication yet.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Riastlin, post: 5367720, member: 94022"] I guess I just always looked at the DMG "adventure" as an intro to the combat system rather than as an adventure per se. I think the other thing to consider, particularly for an "intro adventure" in a core book is that while not every group is heavy into roleplay and story, pretty much every group does enjoy combat. Making the included adventure combat heavy then becomes a bit of a safe choice -- at least for new players. Experienced groups are likely to ignore the included adventure (except maybe to use it as a quick primer). The bigger problem for me though comes with the standalone adventures like KotS. KotS is pretty much a terrible adventure as implemented (though I think it could be made into a good adventure with some work). The problem with this is approach is that the standalone adventures are, in my opinion, a lot more likely to be used by even experienced groups. Every DM occasionally runs into a time crunch for instance. Where I think WotC often fails is that they seem to spend a lot time trying to come up with a story for the dungeon, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but then don't provide a story for the characters in the adventure. The problem here is that while the dungeon's story might be interesting, its often going to be the case that the PCs will not discover that story. Take Sir Keegan for instance. IIRC (don't have the adventure here at work :( ), there's a pretty decent chance that the PCs will never discover his true story -- even if they engage him in the SC if the DM runs the adventure entirely as written. To truly have a good chance of delivering that story, the DM needs to find a way to provide flashbacks (the DM who ran it for me had ghosts sprinkled throughout the Keep reliving their last moments). The actual encounter as written though deals more with getting the PCs to convince Keegan that they are good than with Keegan's story itself. All of this is all well and good for an experienced DM who has the time to modify the adventure to suit his needs, but for new DM's, or DM's who are pressed for time, the adventure ends up falling flat. Its a shame really, because I'm sure that there are plenty of people at WotC who run amazing adventures and campaigns, they just haven't seemed to be able to actually write them for publication yet. [/QUOTE]

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