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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Terramotus" data-source="post: 4127736" data-attributes="member: 7220">Background: I'm a DM who's run games with characters who could summon, and I currently am playing in a game as a druid.I think that most of the commonly suggested solutions to the summoner problem are a cure far worse than the disease.  I also think that many people here are poisoned by the idea of CoDzilla, even if they've never experienced it.  I personally think Druids are only uber in core-only games or when some of the extreme options are allowed (Greenbound Summoning, Aberration Wild Shape, Assume Supernatural Ability, or some planes for the Planar Shepherd).  Druids are powerful because of the aggregate of their abilities.  They've got wild shape, spontaneous summoning, the fact that they can cherry-pick which forms to be and what to summon, and the feats that boost summoning.  Take any one of those away and they become somewhat lame from a powergaming standpoint.  Heck, the errata to Wild Shape almost did that (and totally FUBARed things with types not changing).  But they're nothing compared to many of the options out there.  It's more that they're survivable than anything else, IMO.Summoning also gets increasingly expensive as levels raise in 3E.  First you have to deal with getting through DR, then it's flying, ethereal, invisible, etc.  And while you can get around those things easily with items, summons don't have that option.  To make matters worse, SNA gets worse relative to the CR of what you're facing.  So you're spending actions and casting spells to make them even effective, buffing them...  If it weren't for Rapid Casting and the Summoner's Totem it would hardly be a viable option up into high levels.Let's look at some of the solutions, now:Share of the treasure/share of the XP - This should never be used.  First, it causes ill will in the party, and second, it doesn't really penalize the party, it just jacks with the advancement rate.  If the DM wants to change the advancement rate, he should be trusted to do that, not have umpteen systems interfering with his ability to do so.DM controlling the summoned critters/hirelings - If I have to do this, I ban summoners from my games, flat out.  I've got better things to do than to fight for the players.Summoned monsters acting with caster's actions - Uh, no.  In a well-balanced summoner class, the summoner is ideally not a melee powerhouse as well.  He's giving up personal ability for what essentially amounts to a combination Damage Over Time and defensive mechanism.  But the creatures have to move instead of auto-hitting in an area, and have hit points.  Plus, the summoner is liable to getting killed if the enemies get past his critters.  Flat out, if summons feed off of the summoner's actions, why would I ever play a summoner at all when I could just play a class that's personally powerful without the hassle?Casting time - At higher levels, summoning would be practically useless in 3E without Rapid Casting.  Besides, as has been covered, it sucks to sit there and do nothing.Feats/cost of gaining the power - Pointless if the power is too good.  People will beeline for it anyway.Critters only provide small bonuses - Those looks like benefits that would come from a feat or two or maybe a paragon path.  They're too small otherwise to base a summoning class around.I personally would balance a druid summoner against the wizard as a controller in 4E, and throw in powers like Entangle and Eye of the Hurricane.  Consider the summons to be like an area effect spell.  The nature of encounter based powers makes it very easy to balance anyway.  Making the summons encounter-based powers ensures that they can't be abused to get too many actions in combat anyway.</blockquote>

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