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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jefe Bergenstein" data-source="post: 5660200" data-attributes="member: 31506">Again, non-ritualists cant throw some gold down a hole, and get to scry, scry, speak with dead, etc. The cost *is* minimal to get a bunch of additional non-combat utility. Part of 4th editions design is SPECIFICALLY to shift power away from casters being the dominant narrative voice. If there were no rituals at all, casters would still have the same tools as everyone else. Skills, powers, ability checks, etc. Rituals are essentially a freebie. Its by design that they arent super awesome. Even if you never touch them, you've lost nothing. If you feel they arent useful, dont use them.     During combat days, yes. We're talking non-combat utility there. World building. Narrative shaping. During downtime, all party members should have roughly the same impact on the storyline. But when you have a guy tossing out tons of magical effects, it creates imbalances. Its why things like surges arent a good resource to limit magic's impact.  What experts? The guy with a gather information so high he can speak with the dead? The guy whose heal skill can raise the dead? The guy with the athletics check so high he can fly? Rituals do more than just replicate a few skills. If all you want to do is perform a skill... take the skill and call it magic. That 1/2 level bonus wizards get reflects their training, fluff it as magic.  Again, its an extra tier of abilities. The ritualist ALSO has powers. There should be no combat rituals, period.      No, because the limitations are some nebulous "we'll be sure not to step on anyone's toes, but still be good enough to use all the time". So a limiatation that's not really a limitation doesnt count. If the gold and time are preventing you from using rituals frequently, then balance has been struck. You want extra powers? Spend precious and limited character resources on them.    Most players dont. See, we can both imply we've got the majority on our side.     Take it how you will. Previous editions spoiled casters to no end by making them center stage, magic the go-to solution, and the driving focus of the party's problem solving abilities. When 4th edition rolled around, they reacted like brats, and have been trying to cram extra power back in casters ever since. The holws of rage at being forced down to a level playing field were music to my ears. There's really no justification for giving casters another suite of abilities to call on easily. Previous editions poor balance is no reason to drag it back into this one.</blockquote>

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