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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SteveC" data-source="post: 3997082" data-attributes="member: 9053">I'm not really surprised by this discussion, but at the same time I have to wonder what the thought process behind a lot of it is. The thing is, 3X monsters didn't use the same system as player characters for a lot of things, and where they intersected there were a lot of problems.In my last game session I ran the group against a group of gray render zombies. These creatures are CR6, the same as a level six fighter, and yet have 20 Hit Dice. Those hit dice are there because they're meant to be absolute brutes of monsters, but they also give them saves of: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +12. My group laughed because the render's reflex saves were the same of of the characters' pseudo dragon familiar. Yep that makes sense to me. On top of that, the render should have seven feats, but by virtue of being a zombie he loses all of them, and gets ... wait for it ... toughness. One toughness feat.So that's the system as it exists now. The idea where you can have creatures with hit points by role and level, combined with racial talents can work just as well, and be just as "real" as a fully developed player character.Why can't your player character have Awesome Blow now? Because he's not big enough! Why can't he have Powerful Charge (barring a splat book, mind you)? Because he's not a minotaur. That second one is a good example of what I expect to see in 4E over time: racial talents and abilities will gradually become talents and feats that characters can learn.So I guess I'm at a loss to see what's so great about the current system: if you move any significant distance from the baseline, you begin to see how many of the underlying assumptions behind it don't work. Characters aren't the equivalent to monsters now, and they won't be in the next edition either. What you'll have is greater transparency behind their abilities so that John Cooper can get some well-deserved rest.Just my $.02 ...--Steve</blockquote>

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