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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 4146379" data-attributes="member: 704">I would think that the simple presence of a system for resolving the checks that gives a bit more certainty than opposed roles.  Particularily when you consider the chance of success for un untrained check in 3rd edition drops to a non factor in 3rd edition, while in 4th edition you will probably have at least a reasonable success.  Also consider that the difficulty scale that causes the DM not to discount the approach out of hand due to trivial Min / Maxing, as with the static nature of the Diplomacy check.In 3rd edition, you could try this with a combination of Bluff, Gather Information, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Forgery, Disguise, and Sense motive.But while opposed rolls are a fine and balanced way to do things, there is a massive amount of variance.  If you have a +3 and your opponent has a +4, the difference in your skill levels will not matter at all unless you roll within 2 points of one another.  Otherwise you may as well be playing paper / rock / scissors.  On the Dm side, a character with maxed Diplomacy and Bluff at about level 6 becomes essentially unstoppable by those without ranks in Sense Motive.  With 4th editions untrained check, your 8th level elite guards wont get bluffed out by a 4th level rogue who happened to have maxed out bluff with a high charisma, max skill ranks, and the Skill Focus feat.People like to crap on 3rd editions Diplomacy skill because when used exactly as written, it was broken.  But the existence of a broken skill meant you could choose to focus your character on that, and the DM would probably just choose to modify the adjudication somehow.  A broken skill is better than no skill, since it will at least cause a discussion betwee the DM and the player,and cause the DM to at least consider to account for it as a viable approach.The existence of a well written and well balanced rule will let the DM change gears much more easily if he is caught off guard, and will probably be enough for him to not just hand wave a failure right off the bat.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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