Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5687208" data-attributes="member: 2011">Maybe you are playing the game differently than I am. In our Paragon campaign at level 16, we use up about 150 to 200 temporary hit points in a major encounter. That's 2 to 3 strong healing surges of healing without using up a single healing surge. People couldn't do that with the core rules. That's a major swing toward PC survivability.Cloak of Courage is a 16th level Cleric power that came out in Divine Power (we don't use it in our game because we do not have a Cleric, but it's real potent for PC parties that have a Cleric).Before combat even starts in a 5 party team, it saves 2 healing surges per encounter by handing out 25% of PCs hit points in temporary hit points. Except for the Cleric, the monsters have to do 125% of the damage that they previously had to do. That one power usable pre- every encounter makes the Toughness feat look like a total joke.The list of avoiding damage and surgeless healing goes on and on and on. The Leader is now the PC that stops a lot of damage before it even happens instead of the healer after it happens. Healing that requires a healing surge is now primarily used late in difficult encounters for emergencies, and for mop up healing during a short rest.Although some builds have gotten weaker, they aren't played much anymore, so they don't matter. In the real world, our PCs rarely go unconscious anymore, even with the increased monster damage.PC effectiveness is through the roof because of the sheer number of synergies between feats, powers, and items (and even classes). Sure, a few classes fell by the wayside, but the ones that are played are more effective than ever.Yes, the monster damage change is significant. I used to see about 1 player in 10 or so take Toughness for his PC. Now, I see at least half of them doing it. But I see nearly 100% of players taking Expertise. Why is that?It's because the sheer influx of temp hit points, multiple Daily item powers per day, Expertise, etc., all of these add up. I can guarantee you that you can take the same core classes and races today, build the best possible PCs without the splat books/Dragon and the best with the splat books/Dragon and the ones with all of the options can easily get 2 or 3 more encounters in at any level, and the PCs will fall unconscious a lot less.The option of thousands of extra feats, thousands of extra powers, and thousands of extra items will do that.Yeah they can't nova as well, but they don't need to. Nearly auto-hitting and taking out an NPC most every single round is sufficient. And, they survive to Epic levels better (more average damage per round until early Paragon), so nova is not as important after all when one considers that the average damage per round includes the non-Essentials strikers nova damage.With regard to the E-Martial classes, I see a significant difference between a Rogue that has to get into melee range and usually has to get flank in order to get CA, and a Thief who can hang back at range and auto-get CA. The first class could get a real nice decent to hit and damage, but he had to often risk himself in order to do that. The Thief is, to me, the epitome of class style for the laid back lazy entitled 4E player who wants his cake and eat it too. Many players who played Rogues when core first came out switched to a different class because of the melee issue. I even had a player quit because his original core Rogue (even with core low monster damage) got the snot kicked out of his PC game in and game out. It was very frustrating for that player.A core first level Rogue typically walked around with AC 16, but had to hang out with the Fighters and Paladins who had ACs in the 17 to 20 range (plus fewer hit points for the Rogues). Sure, the defenders usually had one foe marked, but the rest of the up front monsters were free to whale on the Rogue. If the Rogue held back and stayed out of melee when injured, he typically didn't do sneak attack damage. The Thief doesn't have this issue. And it's not just the damage that the Thief avoids, it's the rider effects as well.It really is frustrating to easily be bloodied and having to be making a ton of saving throws nearly every single encounter when your class isn't really designed to do that. Rogues and Thieves are night and day with regard to effectiveness, purely because of the risk factor. The leader doesn't have to heal the Thief as often as the Rogue, hence, has more healing reserves for the rest of the team (and hence, fewer leaders are needed).</blockquote>

Verification